Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[PeteMoss]

My worry with pushing this issue is that its going to get co-oped by the conspiracy loons of the party and it'll be tainted by the time we get to the election.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

My worry with pushing this issue is that its going to get co-oped by the conspiracy loons of the party and it'll be tainted by the time we get to the election.

And the CPC will only have themselves to blame by courting those buffoons to begin with. For how bad the LPC is, the number of own-goals the CPC scores is unreal.

[CaptainCrunch]

As far as I know, there is no indication that the people involved knew the donations were coming from the Chinese government as their source was obscured.

Outside of using this as a campaign talking point, it’s tough to see how to fault individual MPs based on the information we know. China was doing everything from targeting business executives and academics to supplying political campaigns with university-aged volunteers. I wonder if that’s the reason CSIS hasn’t revealed the names of the individuals (as it would imply they were guilty of some wrongdoing instead of possibly victims/unknowing beneficiaries of it)

In the report they talked about under the table donations to campaigns that were not necessarily declared. The equivalent of here's a bag of cash.

That has to be investigated, as it does break campaign contribution rules.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

^Well, if you're characterizing that accurately it actually sounds like something that could result in jail time under the Elections Act, so... yeah, obviously that should be investigated.

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

My worry with pushing this issue is that its going to get co-oped by the conspiracy loons of the party and it'll be tainted by the time we get to the election.

Oh, that's going to happen regardless, and I expect that's also something PP will... if not "lean into", at least not actively discourage. We've got a pretty decent sense of the playbook at this point.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

In the report they talked about under the table donations to campaigns that were not necessarily declared. The equivalent of here's a bag of cash.

That has to be investigated, as it does break campaign contribution rules.

Can you quote that part? I either did not see that or interpreted it differently.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Can you quote that part? I either did not see that or interpreted it differently.

There's this:

CSIS also explained how Chinese diplomats conduct foreign interference operations in support of political candidates and elected officials. Tactics include undeclared cash donations to political campaigns or having business owners hire international Chinese students and “assign them to volunteer in electoral campaigns on a full-time basis.”

Sympathetic donors are also encouraged to provide campaign contributions to candidates favoured by China – donations for which they receive a tax credit from the federal government. Then, the CSIS report from Dec. 20, 2021 says, political campaigns quietly, and illegally, return part of the contribution – “the difference between the original donation and the government’s refund” – back to the donors.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/poli...sis-documents/

But based on the language, it's not really clear whether that actually happened. For most things, they use the past tense (e.g. "Chinese diplomats were instructed to...", "China employed disinformation campaigns...", etc.) which clearly states that x or y happened in Canada.

But for the campaign donation stuff, they switch to present tense which is a softer, more general way to talk about actions. Things like "CSIS also explained how Chinese diplomats conduct foreign service interference...", "tactics include...", and "sympathetic donors are also encouraged..." make it unclear whether they're talking about something that actually happened, or just general tactics that China uses all over the world.

I would think if there was clear evidence of that happening in Canada, it would have been written in the past tense:

"CSIS also explained how Chinese diplomats conducted foreign interference operations in support of political candidates and elected officials. Tactics included undeclared cash donations to political campaigns or having business owners hire international Chinese students and “assign them to volunteer in electoral campaigns on a full-time basis.”

Sympathetic donors were also encouraged to provide campaign contributions to candidates favoured by China – donations for which they received a tax credit from the federal government. Then, the CSIS report from Dec. 20, 2021 says, political campaigns quietly, and illegally, returned part of the contribution – “the difference between the original donation and the government’s refund” – back to the donors."

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

And the CPC will only have themselves to blame by courting those buffoons to begin with. For how bad the LPC is, the number of own-goals the CPC scores is unreal.

Yeah, the CPC is the Steve Smith of political parties.

[Yoho]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1628109211446935562

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Tasha Kheirddin is not a legit news source, Yoho. I know you know that, but yet another one of her Trudeau-bashing opinion pieces isn't worth the time to read.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Tasha Kheirddin is not a legit news source, Yoho. I know you know that, but yet another one of her Trudeau-bashing opinion pieces isn't worth the time to read.

Well I read it and it doesn't seem that bad. She says there are three steps Canada should take to deal with this, and they're pretty basic measures that most people would probably agree with.

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well I read it and it doesn't seem that bad. She says there are three steps Canada should take to deal with this, and they're pretty basic measures that most people would probably agree with.

I read it, and it's really not that insightful. Her three main points are:

1. Parliament should establish a foreign agents registry.

So, foreign agents essentially acting as spies to undermine our democracy are going to sign up for a registry? Seriously? This is going to solve illegal foreign influence? They'll all just willingly sign up? This is like banning guns int he hopes that criminals will stop committing crimes with them. In reality, the bad guys will still find a way.

2. Canada should expel diplomats who meddle in elections and undermine Canadian democracy.

This already happens and is essentially what CSIS has been doing since its creation in the 1980s. I mean, it's well know that foreign countries have been interfering in Canada for decades (50+ years). This is like saying we need to arrest drunk drivers. We already do.

3. Law enforcement needs more resources to fight organized crime and foreign influence.

This is the only statement that makes some logical sense. The problem is, CSIS is a reactionary organization. By that I mean they investigate and uncover interference or actions in Canada after its already occurred or while its occurring. It's very hard to stop something before it happens. Which is the innate complexity inherent to intelligence organizations. Furthermore, We will basically always be playing catch up on this issue. There is no way a country like Canada can match the spending on intelligence related issues when compared to a country like China. They likely have 4-5 (if not more) spies/illegal agents for every 1 of our CSIS agents. We're in a losing game.

Trudeau is a doofus, and I'm not saying he handled this situation well, but I'm not surprised that he's not acting shocked at foreign influence in Canada (or any western democracy). It's an ever-present problem literally going back decades. I honestly wouldn't expect much different of a response from a conservative leader or any leader for that matter. Even if Trudeau (or any PM) did administer her recommendations from the article, it wouldn't stop the issue. It would all just be lip service to appease the general public. Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but in all honesty, 2 of her 3 recommendations were ridiculous, and the third one is unlikely to prove successful.

[TorqueDog]

She might as well have just written one line, "make it illegal to do this sort of thing". Yeah, real groundbreaking stuff, Tasha.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Tasha Kheirddin is not a legit news source, Yoho. I know you know that, but yet another one of her Trudeau-bashing opinion pieces isn't worth the time to read.

Is the Calgary Herald a legit news source?

If you have an issue with what the article says by all means bring it up.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Is the Calgary Herald a legit news source?

If you have an issue with what the article says by all means bring it up.

I have a problem with the writer. Look at her past pieces for the Herald. Every single one is a Trudeau bashing piece. That's her shtick.

And btw, I don't care if a news source is left or right leaning, I don't think biased opinion pieces are 'news'. She's not reporting anything, she's venting. Again.

[Wormius]

The Calgary Herald is a mix of news articles and opinion pieces. A columnist is no more a reporter than Conrad Black is.

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Is the Calgary Herald a legit news source?

If you have an issue with what the article says by all means bring it up.

One issue would be its an opinion piece. I mean I'm fine with opinion writings sometimes, but not as a legitimate news source. Who else do we know that hates opinion pieces? Oh yeah, YOU!

Originally Posted by Yoho

a REAL journalist knows when to answer questions and when to report the news. Sadly journalism has been replaced with partisan drones who editorialize because they believe viewers (readers) are too stupid to form their own opinions.

Besides that my reply above states why her opinion is basically ill-informed and ridiculous.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by b1crunch

I mean, it's well know that foreign countries have been interfering in Canada for decades (50+ years).

Wondering if you have a source or a story to share. I’m not trying to disprove your claim, just genuinely curious.
Thank you.

[peter12]

Man, this thread has gotten bad.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by b1crunch

I read it, and it's really not that insightful. Her three main points are:

1. Parliament should establish a foreign agents registry.

So, foreign agents essentially acting as spies to undermine our democracy are going to sign up for a registry? Seriously? This is going to solve illegal foreign influence? They'll all just willingly sign up? This is like banning guns int he hopes that criminals will stop committing crimes with them. In reality, the bad guys will still find a way.

2. Canada should expel diplomats who meddle in elections and undermine Canadian democracy.

This already happens and is essentially what CSIS has been doing since its creation in the 1980s. I mean, it's well know that foreign countries have been interfering in Canada for decades (50+ years). This is like saying we need to arrest drunk drivers. We already do.

3. Law enforcement needs more resources to fight organized crime and foreign influence.

This is the only statement that makes some logical sense. The problem is, CSIS is a reactionary organization. By that I mean they investigate and uncover interference or actions in Canada after its already occurred or while its occurring. It's very hard to stop something before it happens. Which is the innate complexity inherent to intelligence organizations. Furthermore, We will basically always be playing catch up on this issue. There is no way a country like Canada can match the spending on intelligence related issues when compared to a country like China. They likely have 4-5 (if not more) spies/illegal agents for every 1 of our CSIS agents. We're in a losing game.

Trudeau is a doofus, and I'm not saying he handled this situation well, but I'm not surprised that he's not acting shocked at foreign influence in Canada (or any western democracy). It's an ever-present problem literally going back decades. I honestly wouldn't expect much different of a response from a conservative leader or any leader for that matter. Even if Trudeau (or any PM) did administer her recommendations from the article, it wouldn't stop the issue. It would all just be lip service to appease the general public. Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but in all honesty, 2 of her 3 recommendations were ridiculous, and the third one is unlikely to prove successful.

Well my post said her three points were basic...so I'm not sure why you seem to imply that I think she's figured something amazing out. But more to the point, when was the last diplomat that Canada expelled for these reasons? Obviously it's what we should be doing...but are we actually doing this?

In that piece, she explains that CSIS documents show that the CCP was providing money and volunteers for campaigns. They obviously have something to base this on...clearly something has to happen, right?

[b1crunch]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Wondering if you have a source or a story to share. I’m not trying to disprove your claim, just genuinely curious.
Thank you.

I mean, the Cold War, which began in the mid 1940s and continued through to the 90s was all about espionage and foreign countries spying and interfering with each other. American and Russian examples are common, but it should go without saying that Canada was obviously the target of this stuff since at least back then due to a variety of factors including to our proximity and relationship to the United States.

CSIS as an organization was created in 1984. Before that espionage and spying duties were handled by a special division of the RCMP. If we created CSIS in 1984, obviously there was an issue that was occurring that we deemed it necessary to handle this. As well, the special RCMP division that handled these sorts of things before existed for quite a while before this as well. Obviously it existed due to foreign interference in Canada, whether it was economic or political interference.

On top of this, CSIS is much different from other comparable organizations like the CIA in that it doesn't carry out missions outside of Canada. It only handles incoming activities that impact Canada. The RCMP division before it was the same. So obviously, its sole purpose was to intercept and prevent foreign interference in Canada.