Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Go Back   Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community > Main Forums > The Off Topic Forum
Register Forum Rules FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-15-2016, 05:02 PM   #4541
puffnstuff
Franchise Player
 
puffnstuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: wearing raccoons for boots
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevanGuy View Post
From what a constitutional lawyer said on 770 today, this sounds similar to thier beer tax approach. You have to wonder who they are getting thier legal advice from.
Lionel Hutz?
puffnstuff is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to puffnstuff For This Useful Post:
Old 11-15-2016, 05:03 PM   #4542
Locke
Franchise Player
 
Locke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by puffnstuff View Post
Lionel Hutz?
I hope he got paid up front.

__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!

This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.

The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans

If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
Locke is offline  
Old 11-15-2016, 05:19 PM   #4543
GaiJin
Crash and Bang Winger
 
GaiJin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

The last 2 pages. Wow, just wow.
GaiJin is offline  
Old 11-15-2016, 05:52 PM   #4544
Jacks
Franchise Player
 
Jacks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by belsarius View Post
In good faith to who? Because the "unprofitable or less profitable" clause was not done in good faith. It was added without the public consultation like the other clauses. It wasn't included in normally public access to the agreements and hidden to the point where you needed to find the original documents in the archives to actually find it. What good faith do you mean?
We elect governments to negotiate deals on our behalf. Sometimes the deals aren't that great in retrospect but that makes no difference when it comes to the legitimacy of the deal. They may hold public consultations but they are certainly not bound by them. Just because the NDP didn't do their homework doesn't mean they can just change signed contracts after the fact.

I'd really be interested to see some of these contracts the govermnet has changed retroactively that you are referring to. Back to work legislation doesn't even remotely qualify.
Jacks is offline  
Old 11-15-2016, 06:06 PM   #4545
CaptainCrunch
Norm!
 
CaptainCrunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Exp:
Default

The government can break a contract there are provisions in any contract that can do that. But they certainly cannot change the terms of a legal signed contract.

Also I doubt any court will allow legislation to retroactively change the terms of a contract that would be a unfair practice. Even simple things like changes to rates or conditions would have to be done with a revised contract that's agreed upon by both sides. Or they can invoke the clause that allows them to end the contract.

If they change the legislation and it goes in front of the courts, especially with the current lawsuit pending any judge will probably laugh in the governments face and find for the power companies.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;

Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
CaptainCrunch is offline  
Old 11-15-2016, 06:27 PM   #4546
GaiJin
Crash and Bang Winger
 
GaiJin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

I kinda hope they do it. It could be the straw that finally breaks the camels back within their own party, surely there has to be some mlc's lucid enough within the NDP to realize how ridiculous this has gotten. I thought Duane Bratt was always soft on the NDP, but even he is questioning their thought process on this.

Mount Royal University political science professor Duane Bratt said the move would create “a huge investor chill in the province” just as the government is accepting bids from renewable power producers to generate more electricity here.

Brett said he couldn’t remember an Alberta government ever introducing retroactive legislation to change a contract signed 15 years ago and any such move “puts the competency of the government at play.
GaiJin is offline  
Old 11-15-2016, 06:55 PM   #4547
chemgear
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GaiJin View Post
I kinda hope they do it. It could be the straw that finally breaks the camels back within their own party, surely there has to be some mlc's lucid enough within the NDP to realize how ridiculous this has gotten.
Somehow I doubt it. That camel certainly has been taking it like a champ.
chemgear is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to chemgear For This Useful Post:
Old 11-15-2016, 06:59 PM   #4548
chemgear
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Exp:
Default

I got an email from Enmax discussing the upcoming Carbon Tax. They're doing a decent job explaining what is happening and looks like (I hope) they are going to be splitting out the new government levy for people to see very clearly.

They also outlined the additional cost if the extra tax had been in place for the heating that you used this year.
chemgear is offline  
Old 11-15-2016, 08:12 PM   #4549
Bunk
Franchise Player
 
Bunk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Exp:
Default

Consideration for retroactively cancelling province’s power contracts “absolutely nuts,” Nenshi


http://bit.ly/2fT75jv
__________________
Trust the snake.
Bunk is offline  
Old 11-15-2016, 08:18 PM   #4550
Ducay
Franchise Player
 
Ducay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Exp:
Default

I feel like the whole power contract situation is hilarious and could almost be made into a movie (comedy or documentary, you decide). You'd think with all the bureaucrats and lawyers behind the AB gov't this sort of whoopsie wouldn't occur.
Ducay is offline  
Old 11-15-2016, 09:31 PM   #4551
automaton 3
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Lethbridge
Exp:
Default

It should no longer surprise me just how foolish and incompetent this government is, but the sheer depths of their buffoonery makes the bottom difficult to gauge.
automaton 3 is offline  
Old 11-15-2016, 10:12 PM   #4552
OMG!WTF!
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robbob View Post
Out of curiosity, anyone know what the delay is for the province to chip in for the green line? It would seem like an easy ask with both the City and Feds already committing 1.5B each for a "green" project. I thought the NDP would be all over this and already set aside blank cheques for infrastructure projects?
Going back a couple pages but I think we'll know more on Friday however they are already talking about a plan B. It would be a blood bath here if they changed that plan.

http://www.newstalk770.com/2016/11/15/159578/
OMG!WTF! is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to OMG!WTF! For This Useful Post:
Old 11-16-2016, 12:38 AM   #4553
Kjesse
Retired
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Exp:
Default

Nenshi talks about the real issue here, it is the Rule of Law:

http://www.calgarysun.com/2016/11/15...gislation-nuts

Quote:

“To think (investors) have to take into account that kind of political risk as though you were investing in a place without the rule of law ... That is nuts. It’s absolutely nuts.”



That was Nenshi. Smart guy. What is the Rule of Law? Its a huge topic but here are some snippets from the Wikipedia page on it. Keep in mind "citizens" and "corporations" are not distinguished here, they are the same thing for the purposes of the entry:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_law

The rule of law is the legal principle that law should govern a nation, as opposed to being governed by arbitrary decisions of individual government officials. It primarily refers to the influence and authority of law within society, particularly as a constraint upon behaviour, including behaviour of government officials.

The economist F. A. Hayek analyzed how the Rule of Law might be beneficial to the free market. Hayek proposed that under the Rule of Law individuals would be able to make wise investments and future plans with some confidence in a successful return on investment when he stated: "under the Rule of Law the government is prevented from stultifying individual efforts by ad hoc action. Within the known rules of the game the individual is free to pursue his personal ends and desires, certain that the powers of government will not be used deliberately to frustrate his efforts."

As used by the World Justice Project, a non-profit organization committed to advancing the rule of law around the world, the rule of law refers to a rules-based system in which the following four universal principles are upheld:[70]
1. The government and its officials and agents are accountable under the law;
2. The laws are clear, publicized, stable, fair, and protect fundamental rights, including the security of persons and property;
3. The process by which the laws are enacted, administered, and enforced is accessible, fair, and efficient;
4. Access to justice is provided by competent, independent, and ethical adjudicators, attorneys or representatives, and judicial officers who are of sufficient number, have adequate resources, and reflect the makeup of the communities they serve.



A suggestion in this thread by one poster claims the contract was not entered into in "good faith" because certain amendments came about late in the negotiations and were not publicly vetted.

That poster does not understand what good faith means in contract law. Law that has existed and evolved for centuries. I also suspect he (or she) does not know that the amendment was proposed, considered, discussed, and then accepted as a written and vetted part of the agreement. This is the best, most recent statement of the concept described from the Supreme Court of Canada (2014 if anyone cares):

In Bhasin v Hrynew, a unanimous Supreme Court of Canada recognized that good faith contractual performance is a general organizing principle of Canadian common law, and that parties to a contract are under a duty to act honestly in the performance of their contractual obligations. The case is the first time our highest court has examined whether parties owe a duty of good faith in contractual performance.

https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/sc...14438/index.do


In other words, you don't put your political desires above the deal that had been reached. It does not matter even if, over a decade after the fact, a particular new government thinks the deal should not have been reached. It was reached. It is binding. The Rule of Law means the King can not change the law or its own contracts retroactively/retrospectively.

The government does not get to change the deal because they have a philosophical difference about taking on the consequences of a new tax which the same government of a different political philosophy previously agreed might allow the power companies to escape a loss based on a new tax which was never even on the radar screen at the time.

The Alberta Government enters into contracts numbered in the hundreds or even thousands, every day, and there are almost no requirements to consult the public: If they had to do so, there would be no contacts because there will always be detractors. Even with consultation, the government can do what it will within its own regulations.

A person or a company can rely upon the government's promise contained in a contract even if said government does not consult their citizens: They have the power to govern within the rule of law.

The Notley government is proving themselves to be either incompetently advised from a legal perspective, or tyrants.

My own view is they are simply incompetent, guided by ideology that makes little practical sense.

Last edited by Kjesse; 11-16-2016 at 01:23 AM.
Kjesse is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Kjesse For This Useful Post:
Old 11-16-2016, 05:06 AM   #4554
Makarov
Franchise Player
 
Makarov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Moscow
Exp:
Default

This was discussed at great length months ago in this thread: PPAs are not ordinary contracts.
__________________
"Life of Russian hockey veterans is very hard," said Soviet hockey star Sergei Makarov. "Most of them don't have enough to eat these days. These old players are Russian legends."
Makarov is offline  
Old 11-16-2016, 08:18 AM   #4555
Locke
Franchise Player
 
Locke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Income Tax Central
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makarov View Post
This was discussed at great length months ago in this thread: PPAs are not ordinary contracts.
Oh. Ok. So they can be retroactively changed after 15 years and the people who bid on them get screwed by the Government.

Cool. Cool, cool, cool. Good to know.

It doesnt change the fact that its batcrap insane.
__________________
The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!

This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.

The World Ends when you're dead. Until then, you've got more punishment in store. - Flames Fans

If you thought this season would have a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.
Locke is offline  
Old 11-16-2016, 08:35 AM   #4556
chemgear
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Exp:
Default

chemgear is offline  
Old 11-16-2016, 08:37 AM   #4557
PsYcNeT
Franchise Player
 
PsYcNeT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Marseilles Of The Prairies
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunk View Post
Consideration for retroactively cancelling province’s power contracts “absolutely nuts,” Nenshi


http://bit.ly/2fT75jv
Man that Nenshi, what a leftist hack eh.
__________________

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm View Post
Settle down there, Temple Grandin.
PsYcNeT is offline  
Old 11-16-2016, 08:43 AM   #4558
corporatejay
Franchise Player
 
corporatejay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsYcNeT View Post
Man that Nenshi, what a leftist hack eh.
__________________
corporatejay is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to corporatejay For This Useful Post:
Old 11-16-2016, 08:45 AM   #4559
belsarius
First Line Centre
 
belsarius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cranbrook
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delgar View Post
The Alberta Government enters into contracts numbered in the hundreds or even thousands, every day, and there are almost no requirements to consult the public: If they had to do so, there would be no contacts because there will always be detractors. Even with consultation, the government can do what it will within its own regulations.
Actually according to the legislation passed regarding the PPAs in 1997 (1998?), they were to be written by an independent board with public consultation. The AUEB then had a requirement to hold public hearings for any changes to those consultation and PPAs written by the Independent team. The Enron clause was added months after public hearings closed and only 5 days before the auction.

The emails between the AUEB and Enron even show they were concerned that public hearings were going to be required. Instead the AUEB make the change without consultation.

So no in most cases the government doesn't need consultation for contracts. In the case of PPAs it was mandated in the law that it was required. The AUEB didn't follow the legislation and put in a clause that was not vetted publically as it was supposed to. They then hid the clause from most documentation so it could only be found in the original documents in the main records.

Legally (based on the original legislation) the AUEB had no right to add the "or more unprofitable" clause. That's why they are fighting it.

So yeah, investment is being told if you try and skirt the rules, do things in backroom dealings, we will punish it and change the agreements to make them legal.
__________________
@PR_NHL
The @NHLFlames are the first team to feature four players each with 50+ points within their first 45 games of a season since the Penguins in 1995-96 (Ron Francis, Mario Lemieux, Jaromir Jagr, Tomas Sandstrom).

Fuzz - "He didn't speak to the media before the election, either."
belsarius is offline  
Old 11-16-2016, 09:06 AM   #4560
OMG!WTF!
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Exp:
Default

I've always wondered if anyone would have given a hoot if they had been consulted on the "Enron clause". It's what most PPA's in other jurisdictions have. It's mostly immaterial to the spirit of the deal. That's what bugs me most. It's the guy who brings the NBA official rules manual to a pick up game and starts calling delay of game technicals.
OMG!WTF! is offline  
Closed Thread


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:05 PM.

Calgary Flames
2024-25




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021 | See Our Privacy Policy