Brad Treliving needs to go

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Weren't the amnesty buy outs before 2014?

You are correct, sir.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...ut-candidates/


“The last time the National Hockey League endured such a severe interruption of action — and the inevitable economic sucker-punch that goes with it — the general managers were granted a get-out-of-jail-free card. Two of them, in fact.

In the summer that followed the 2012-13 lockout and truncated season, the players and governors agreed that each club would be permitted two compliance buyouts to help free up salary-cap space in the face of a stagnant cap ceiling. These could be used in the summer of 2013 and/or the summer of 2014, as the cap ceiling waited two seasons to resume its upward trajectory.”

[powderjunkie]

I missed your note about 2014 onward. What was your source for that list?

2014 included amnesties for:

Ehrhoff & Leino (BUF)
B Richards
Jovanovski
Volchenkov
Havlat
Tootoo
Booth
Rome

It looks like Ribeiro's buyout that year was not amnesty, along with a few others (SOB, Gleason, etc.)

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I missed your note about 2014 onward. What was your source for that list?

2014 included amnesties for:

Ehrhoff & Leino (BUF)
B Richards
Jovanovski
Volchenkov
Havlat
Tootoo
Booth
Rome

It looks like Ribeiro's buyout that year was not amnesty, along with a few others (SOB, Gleason, etc.)

CapFriendly was the source

[timbit]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I missed your note about 2014 onward. What was your source for that list?

2014 included amnesties for:

Ehrhoff & Leino (BUF)
B Richards
Jovanovski
Volchenkov
Havlat
Tootoo
Booth
Rome

It looks like Ribeiro's buyout that year was not amnesty, along with a few others (SOB, Gleason, etc.)

There were just south of 30 amnesty buyouts for NHL teams in 2013 and 2014.

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...-what-we-know/

[Bingo]

Updated the list to pull Amnesty buyouts ... not sure we should though, still mistakes by GMs but with a get out card.

Calgary 13th in dollars at $12.4M, NHL average not including amnesty is $14.0M

Row Labels Y (blank) Grand Total
MIN $1,333,333 $49,271,797 $50,605,131
NYR $28,833,331 $31,400,000 $60,233,331
CBJ $24,516,667 $24,516,667
NSH $666,667 $24,511,111 $25,177,778
EDM $23,183,333 $23,183,333
ANA $23,055,555 $23,055,555
CAR $21,833,333 $21,833,333
OTT $20,666,667 $20,666,667
FLA $2,750,000 $19,750,000 $22,500,000
DET $2,100,000 $19,133,333 $21,233,333
NJD $6,133,333 $18,266,667 $24,400,000
SJS $2,833,333 $15,966,667 $18,800,000
ARI $15,733,333 $15,733,333
CGY $1,333,333 $12,425,000 $13,758,333
BUF $27,666,667 $11,816,667 $39,483,333
MTL $3,869,048 $11,566,667 $15,435,714
LAK $11,000,000 $11,000,000
COL $9,816,667 $9,816,667
VAN $6,133,333 $8,900,000 $15,033,333
TBL $36,484,845 $8,500,000 $44,984,845
PHI $31,055,557 $7,800,000 $38,855,557
TOR $14,266,667 $7,400,000 $21,666,667
BOS $6,866,667 $6,866,667
PIT $6,500,000 $6,500,000
DAL $1,000,000 $4,966,667 $5,966,667
NYI $22,500,000 $2,471,700 $24,971,700
WPG $1,750,000 $1,750,000
WSH $916,667 $0 $916,667
ATL $0 $0
CHI $3,791,667 $0 $3,791,667
STL $0 $0
Grand Total $193,667,781 $419,068,497 $612,736,277

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Flamesfan05

The fact the core remains in tact should concern everyone

Coleman is great as a support player for a contender.

Look at these deals in a vacuum and they don't seem too bad, but it is alarming that Tre would still feel the need to continue signing Pitlick, Ritchie and Welinski type players over using the pipeline that was supposed to be supplying the team with internal talent after 7 ish years of his "plan". What exactly is wrong with Ruzicka, Philips, Pettersen etc when they are consistently being billed as impressive players during camp and throughout the season? Is it all smoke and mirrors or does this franchise simply not need to save the cap space that other teams do by using the odd home grown talent?

This team is on track to have next to no cap space again once it takes care of its own business, and still seems to want to go back at it once more with the same core forward group. It's hard to be excited about what Treliving is doing these days and I can't wait to watch players like Monahan descend painfully into obscurity even further than they already have.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Updated the list to pull Amnesty buyouts ... not sure we should though, still mistakes by GMs but with a get out card.

Calgary 13th in dollars at $12.4M, NHL average not including amnesty is $14.0M

Row Labels Y (blank) Grand Total
MIN $1,333,333 $49,271,797 $50,605,131
NYR $28,833,331 $31,400,000 $60,233,331
CBJ $24,516,667 $24,516,667
NSH $666,667 $24,511,111 $25,177,778
EDM $23,183,333 $23,183,333
ANA $23,055,555 $23,055,555
CAR $21,833,333 $21,833,333
OTT $20,666,667 $20,666,667
FLA $2,750,000 $19,750,000 $22,500,000
DET $2,100,000 $19,133,333 $21,233,333
NJD $6,133,333 $18,266,667 $24,400,000
SJS $2,833,333 $15,966,667 $18,800,000
ARI $15,733,333 $15,733,333
CGY $1,333,333 $12,425,000 $13,758,333
BUF $27,666,667 $11,816,667 $39,483,333
MTL $3,869,048 $11,566,667 $15,435,714
LAK $11,000,000 $11,000,000
COL $9,816,667 $9,816,667
VAN $6,133,333 $8,900,000 $15,033,333
TBL $36,484,845 $8,500,000 $44,984,845
PHI $31,055,557 $7,800,000 $38,855,557
TOR $14,266,667 $7,400,000 $21,666,667
BOS $6,866,667 $6,866,667
PIT $6,500,000 $6,500,000
DAL $1,000,000 $4,966,667 $5,966,667
NYI $22,500,000 $2,471,700 $24,971,700
WPG $1,750,000 $1,750,000
WSH $916,667 $0 $916,667
ATL $0 $0
CHI $3,791,667 $0 $3,791,667
STL $0 $0
Grand Total $193,667,781 $419,068,497 $612,736,277

How many GMs have the teams gone through? Like Guerin is cleaning up the mess from the previous regime so that should be taken into account too.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Look at these deals in a vacuum and they don't seem too bad, but it is alarming that Tre would still feel the need to continue signing Pitlick, Ritchie and Welinski type players over using the pipeline that was supposed to be supplying the team with internal talent after 7 ish years of his "plan". What exactly is wrong with Ruzicka, Philips, Pettersen etc when they are consistently being billed as impressive players during camp and throughout the season? Is it all smoke and mirrors or does this franchise simply not need to save the cap space that other teams do by using the odd home grown talent?

This team is on track to have next to no cap space again once it takes care of its own business, and still seems to want to go back at it once more with the same core forward group. It's hard to be excited about what Treliving is doing these days and I can't wait to watch players like Monahan descend painfully into obscurity even further than they already have.

What cap space would you be saving?

Lewis, Welinski and Ritchie are all close to league minimum and can have their entire salary buried in the AHL if they get beat out by a prospect.

There is literally no risk at all.

Free depth.

Then if a kid blows the door open they are easy to get rid of with no contract head ache.

You don't like free depth? You don't like backup plans?

I get that you hate Treliving but this isn't the hill to die on.

[Dan403]

Originally Posted by Bingo

What cap space would you be saving?

Lewis, Welinski and Ritchie are all close to league minimum and can have their entire salary buried in the AHL if they get beat out by a prospect.

There is literally no risk at all.

Free depth.

Then if a kid blows the door open they are easy to get rid of with no contract head ache.

You don't like free depth? You don't like backup plans?

I get that you hate Treliving but this isn't the hill to die on.

Don't confuse them with facts.

They made their minds up long ago.

[Strange Brew]

I'm not worried about salary cap risk with these players, just want them to be better than what we have seen historically. The bottom roster signings last year were pretty much awful which does contribute to on ice results. That's the risk I'm worried about.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I'm not worried about salary cap risk with these players, just want them to be better than what we have seen historically. The bottom roster signings last year were pretty much awful which does contribute to on ice results. That's the risk I'm worried about.

Certainly didn't work out for sure.

But did you expect that?

The scouting report on Nordstrom was spot on ... good defensive player that can't score at all.

But I thought Simon was a plug and play player with a lack of finish that could play on any line ... nope.

Leivo had decent underlying numbers but just didn't do anything in games from the eye test. Frustrating player.

Honestly thought they added decent depth last year.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I'm not worried about salary cap risk with these players, just want them to be better than what we have seen historically. The bottom roster signings last year were pretty much awful which does contribute to on ice results. That's the risk I'm worried about.

This is exactly it. Coleman is a typical signing in that he was a bottom six guy on a good team and now is expected to be a top six guy or at least is paid as such. I've seen enough of him with the Devils and Tampa to think he's not worth the AAV and certainly not the term.

[timbit]

It’s really remarkable that , still, many posters do not understand the salary and contract length bump UFAs receive.
No acquisition cost.
Free asset.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Saqe

This is exactly it. Coleman is a typical signing in that he was a bottom six guy on a good team and now is expected to be a top six guy or at least is paid as such. I've seen enough of him with the Devils and Tampa to think he's not worth the AAV and certainly not the term.

Glad Treliving took a deeper look.

As it's been said numerous times he was a top five player in Tampa in most five on five stats and usage.

He's ranked 150th in points per 60 NHL wide in points for the last three years (solid 2nd line), and 60th in goals per 60 (top line).

He's not a bottom roster player, he played on a defacto third line on the league's best team, but actually had 2nd line usage by five on five standards.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Glad Treliving took a deeper look.

As it's been said numerous times he was a top five player in Tampa in most five on five stats and usage.

He's ranked 150th in points per 60 NHL wide in points for the last three years (solid 2nd line), and 60th in goals per 60 (top line).

He's not a bottom roster player, he played on a defacto third line on the league's best team, but actually had 2nd line usage by five on five standards.

Good for him peaking right at the time when he gets his one big shot at free agency. I wonder how many of you have actually seen him play over the years? Because I follow the Panthers and have seen him a ton with the Devils and then Tampa. He is a solid player but this contract is totally absurd to me and it's going to be bad sooner than later.

And this isn't only a shot at Treliving but all GMs who handed out moronic deals once again in free agency. They never learn.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I'm not worried about salary cap risk with these players, just want them to be better than what we have seen historically. The bottom roster signings last year were pretty much awful which does contribute to on ice results. That's the risk I'm worried about.

Bottom 6 was awful and nobody in the system to replace or push them

Personally I don’t see how Lewis and Pitlick are going to be better than Bennett Ryan and Leivo.

The only hope is if the young guys can step up but Pel and Zary may be a couple years away

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Good for him peaking right at the time when he gets his one big shot at free agency. I wonder how many of you have actually seen him play over the years? Because I follow the Panthers and have seen him a ton with the Devils and then Tampa. He is a solid player but this contract is totally absurd to me and it's going to be bad sooner than later.

And this isn't only a shot at Treliving but all GMs who handed out moronic deals once again in free agency. They never learn.

So you go from saying you've seen enough of him to know he's not a top 6 player, to being told about the fantastic rates he's put up over the years on both Tampa & New Jersey both offensively and defensively, to saying he peaked at the right time?

Coleman has put up fantastic rates ever since he entered the NHL. He didn't have a one-off great season.

Calling the deal moronic when Coleman has never been anything but a great point producer, fantastic goal scorer, and one of the best players in the NHL at driving both offense and defense is just silly.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Good for him peaking right at the time when he gets his one big shot at free agency. I wonder how many of you have actually seen him play over the years? Because I follow the Panthers and have seen him a ton with the Devils and then Tampa. He is a solid player but this contract is totally absurd to me and it's going to be bad sooner than later.

And this isn't only a shot at Treliving but all GMs who handed out moronic deals once again in free agency. They never learn.

I didn't use last year's numbers ... used his last three years against players across the league.

So that's not peaking (though 29 could be) it's an average

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I didn't use last year's numbers ... used his last three years against players across the league.

So that's not peaking (though 29 could be) it's an average

Where did you get that I only meant last year? He has peaked at the right time (unsurprisingly) to when he has the last chance to hit free agency and still be considered effective. This really is a perfect timing and good for him. Over thirty and his FA deal looks much different.



But he was playing for a last big deal and the security of the rest of his life. And is almost 30 years old. How many times have we seen this same movie before? I think the best case scenario will be something similar like with Frolik. Maybe one or two good years but at the end of the deal you can't wait to see him go.



I can't see him ever being able to live up to this deal and I don't think the odds are against me. The Coleman I know and saw even with Tampa isn't worth this deal and maybe the stats say he is but I've never seen anything to think he should get a deal like this.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Where did you get that I only meant last year? He has peaked at the right time (unsurprisingly) to when he has the last chance to hit free agency and still be considered effective. This really is a perfect timing and good for him. Over thirty and his FA deal looks much different.



But he was playing for a last big deal and the security of the rest of his life. And is almost 30 years old. How many times have we seen this same movie before? I think the best case scenario will be something similar like with Frolik. Maybe one or two good years but at the end of the deal you can't wait to see him go.



I can't see him ever being able to live up to this deal and I don't think the odds are against me. The Coleman I know and saw even with Tampa isn't worth this deal and maybe the stats say he is but I've never seen anything to think he should get a deal like this.

Well yeah the stats do say he's worth the contract. Now.

In four years maybe not for sure.

But that's pretty much the rule of law with UFAs ... so you can either close up shop and ignore the whole day, or pick a guy that at least delivers on the first half of his contract.

Coleman looks to be one of those guys.

Hopefully his other intangibles make the back nine of his contract bearable as well.

Either way would rather see them invest in a complete player than a one trick pony who's a disaster when that one trick goes away ... ~cough~ Neal.