Russia invades Ukraine

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

It's not just about nukes.

How many of these examples you bring up involve the bloody dictator invading and attempting to seize control of another nation? None. That's the main difference here. The US/NATO priority is to save innocent lives in a contry being victimized by a barbaric, violent invasion. Putin keeps making it harder and harder for lives to be saved. Still, the idea of NATO getting directly involved in fighting Russian troops is a total non-starter. The chances of a US attack on Moscow is zero. Absolutely zero.

Again, if Putin was committing mass murder on Russian soil, then your comparisons would make more sense.

Easy. Saddam and Kuwait. US did bomb Baghdad in response, not just Iraqis army in Kuwait

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War_air_campaign

[afc wimbledon]

I think all of you need to stop focusing on rules, the US and NATO are happy to invent any pretext, like Russia, to throw their weight around when they want to, the only difference today is the US doesnt have an appetite for a new war, Biden was elected on ending the war in the middle east, nor do they want to risk a nuclear war with a clearly unhinged Russia, right now the west is getting the best of everything, Russia's army is devastated and will take several decades to rebuild, in truth Poland and the Baltics have nothing to fear, Russia is all but defenceless right now, it has no ability to project force at all, it's equipment has been shown to be bog awful, and we haven't had to do more than feed the Ukrainians with rockets

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I think all of you need to stop focusing on rules, the US and NATO are happy to invent any pretext, like Russia, to throw their weight around when they want to, the only difference today is the US doesnt have an appetite for a new war, Biden was elected on ending the war in the middle east, nor do they want to risk a nuclear war with a clearly unhinged Russia, right now the west is getting the best of everything, Russia's army is devastated and will take several decades to rebuild, in truth Poland and the Baltics have nothing to fear, Russia is all but defenceless right now, it has no ability to project force at all, it's equipment has been shown to be bog awful, and we haven't had to do more than feed the Ukrainians with rockets

Agreed in full.

All hail St Javelin.

[curves2000]

I will come to Pointman's defense here and state that I understand where some of his concerns are coming from. Some of them are valid and some of the questions he has brought up are of legit concern to a whole host of people in other countries, not just Russia. This isn't all propaganda as the US does have a history of meddling in the affairs of other countries, and this includes a thousand different examples.

I would be what most people would describe as Pro America but I am not naïve enough to buy into some of this American BS that they try to sell to the world in some ways. When you hear a lot of American's talk, and this includes educated people who are in positions of political power, it's always about American Democracy. America's Freedom, American values etc.

The way a lot of people talk its as if Democracy and freedom only occur in America and if its some sort of American invention. Plenty of countries and cultures promote and are considered democratic and free.

Did Russia have some legit security concerns with NATO and the west? Absolutely in their minds, only a fool can't see that. Are they going about it in the proper manner? **** no. Do a whole host of other countries have legit political and historical concerns with American influence in their own personal affairs? Absolutely and the list those countries is probably stunningly long.

People have different experiences with different upbringing and there is no one size fit's all strategy. Everybody has their own plus and minuses in their own value system.

[Itse]

I want to add that while I think Pointmans fear is irrational, most fears are pretty irrational. Emotions kind of by definition aren't super rational, and knowing how much Russian state media has played up the idea of needing to be constantly afraid of western aggression for generations, it's extremely human to feel that fear.

It's easy to say that "you shouldn't be afraid of someone bombing you", when you're not the one in danger if that happens.

(One massive tragedy here is that in reality, the western economies have really gone out of their way to not be the enemy of Russia. Western nations are driven by capitalist desires (or the desires of capitalists), and integrating Russia into the global capitalist system peacefully has for that reason been a major goal of western powers ever since the Soviet collapse. A major reason why everyone has been willing to look the other way when Putin has done the horrid crap he's done over the years was because the west just wanted SO BADLY to bring Russia into their fold, to have them as a partner at the table instead of an enemy.

All those international companies didn't come to Russia just so they could wait for an excuse to pull out dramatically.

Sadly it's a dictatorship and that was never beneficial to Putin. His only strength is in power games, so he keeps wanting to play adversarial power games. He is after all kind of a terrible economical and political leader, proven by the perpetually sorry state of the Russian economy compared to it's national resources, and would likely quickly get replaced in peaceful political conditions where things like trade relations and economic development were at the top of the people's mind instead of national safety.)

[icarus]

I would say that Pointman also has a justifiable fear of conscription at some point.

In any case we've seen so many stories of Russians drinking the Kool Aid and not even believing there's a war or else Ukraine is full of Nazis, I appreciate that Pointman is clearly a Putin sceptic and appreciates perspectives outside of the Russian echo chamber.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Pointman

I don't see any contradiction. Putin is commiting horrible war crimes. I don't recall me saying any different. Because of those crimes, the whole world hates Russia right now. The world did not hate Russia two months ago. Because Russians are currently doing awful crimes, it's not a stretch at all to compare them to what Milosevic and Gaddafi did. This results in a pretty strong desire by NATO to step in and stop it. I share the same desire. If I could somehow stop it, I would. Now, what NATO does when it wants to stop large scale war crimes? History shows that they bomb the country that is doing those crimes. Whether it's "just" and "deserved" is beyond the point.

The whole world hates Putin and the idiots who are following him in the killing innocent civilians, not Russia or even 99% of Russian people.

This is all on Putin, hopefully someone in his inner circle gets to him soon and gives him a 3rd eye.

[PeteMoss]

I agree with Pointman that Nato may be bombing Russia if Russia wasn't a nuclear power.

But Russia is a nuclear power, so Nato won't bomb it. He has as much to worry about in Moscow (regarding being bombed by NATO) as people in Washington have to worry about bombed by Russia.

[jammies]

People making comments that they're happy to see dead Russian soldiers, or that the Ukrainians shouldn't take prisoners feed right into the Russian paranoia that enables Kremlin propaganda to flourish. Dehumanizing and dismissing the worth of people is dangerous if you want to convince them your intentions are benign.

Talk about punishing war criminals, call for Putin's overthrow and trial, celebrate Ukrainian victories - appropriate. Venting the same ugly emotions that cause war crimes and sustain authoritarians everywhere is not.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by jammies

People making comments that they're happy to see dead Russian soldiers,

but I am

or that the Ukrainians shouldn't take prisoners

the should take prisoners and treat them humanely

if you want to convince them your intentions are benign.

but I don't and they are not as it relates to Russian aggressors in Ukraine.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah. I know. Like the Americans who gobble up the right-wing spin.

The cause I see pointman rallying around right now is that of the USA and nato bogeyman somehow invading Russia. Like, that's not happening without some serious aggression toward a nato country. It's just unfounded and nothing points to that being a concern for Russia other than Russian propaganda.

If I lived there and my only media source was Russia I'd fall for it, too, I'm sure.

My point - poorly made - was how pointman (and Russians) are the same as the pro-war propaganda westerners who thought Iraq was somehow a threat to western civilization and needed to be obliterated. If you were in support of the Iraq war, but not in support of this invasion, idk, maybe reflect on that.

Right-wing people start wars. Why is that and why don't right-wing people identify what it is in their nature and belief system that leads them to always ####ing up the world and killing people? It's always the same type of guy anywhere in the world from what I can see. Do liberal countries attack other countries and murder civilians? I can't think of an example.

It’s worth keeping in mind that Ukraine and enthusiastic ally Poland are both quite right-wing countries. For example, they expressed the highest approval ratings for Trump (Ukraine 44, Poland 51) out of every country in Europe (by comparison, Germany and Sweden expressed 13 and 18 per cent approval).

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...lobalimage4-1/

Poland is being admirably welcoming to Ukrainian refugees. They also have an extreme right-wing ethno-nationalist government that has muzzled the media, subverted the judiciary, and vilifies liberal values around culture, gender, and sexuality - Poland today is basically Trump’s wet dream of what America will look like when all his opposition is crushed. And they’re the most avid opponents of Russia in Europe.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Pointman is seriously no worse than all the dumb Americans with their Support our Troops bumper stickers and all the, 'let's fight them over there so we don't have to fight them here' bs when the USA attacked and destroyed Iraq. A certain type of guy will just rally around "the cause" for the their country. We've seen it ourselves when our main ally decided to go completely fataing nuts and destroy a country for no justifiable reason. Hell, there were Canadians - usually the right-leaning ones - who also supported ruining Iraq.

It's weird how as you get older you just see this same #### over and over. Depressing.

One of his first posts in this thread is Pointman saying that Russians are cool having a dictator as long as they can do things like honeymoon in the Maldives. Completely ####ed up state of mind.

[Firebot]

Russian soldiers are the ones indiscriminately killing and terrorizing civilians.

They are complicit. The person pulling the trigger is just as guilty as the one giving the order.

The only Russian soldiers that shouldn't be killed are the ones that surrender, otherwise they are invading a sovereign country and committing war crimes with the express purpose of killing and committing genocide.

Russian soldiers have a choice, as seen by "Misha". But if they are holding a gun while invading a sovereign country and continue to hold it after being provided a choice to lay their weapons down, they have made a choice as well.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Scroopy Noopers

One of his first posts in this thread is Pointman saying that Russians are cool having a dictator as long as they can do things like honeymoon in the Maldives. Completely ####ed up state of mind.

Sadly, a more common outlook than we would hope. China is the same. With the way things are going in India, they may soon be as well. Lots of people in this world value security over freedom.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by jammies

People making comments that they're happy to see dead Russian soldiers, or that the Ukrainians shouldn't take prisoners feed right into the Russian paranoia that enables Kremlin propaganda to flourish. Dehumanizing and dismissing the worth of people is dangerous if you want to convince them your intentions are benign.

Talk about punishing war criminals, call for Putin's overthrow and trial, celebrate Ukrainian victories - appropriate. Venting the same ugly emotions that cause war crimes and sustain authoritarians everywhere is not.

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At the same time, those soldiers are the ones actually flattening cities. So #### Russian soldiers, directly. The separation between leaders and soldiers was the first week. They're the ones still killing civilians when they can actually just stop.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Sadly, a more common outlook than we would hope. China is the same. With the way things are going in India, they may soon be as well. Lots of people in this world value security over freedom.

A lot of Americans think this way, too. 70+ million voted for Trump and probably would again in 2024.

[Cheese]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1507366304604372996

https://twitter.com/user/status/1507369918320287748

[karl262]

Originally Posted by jammies

People making comments that they're happy to see dead Russian soldiers, or that the Ukrainians shouldn't take prisoners feed right into the Russian paranoia that enables Kremlin propaganda to flourish. Dehumanizing and dismissing the worth of people is dangerous if you want to convince them your intentions are benign.

Talk about punishing war criminals, call for Putin's overthrow and trial, celebrate Ukrainian victories - appropriate. Venting the same ugly emotions that cause war crimes and sustain authoritarians everywhere is not.

Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using Tapatalk

Are dead invading Russian soldiers in Ukraine a good thing or a bad thing?

[Cheese]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1507211542986735617

[icarus]

Originally Posted by Cheese

https://twitter.com/user/status/1507211542986735617

Thanks for sharing Cheese, @JominiW's reports are the most detailed, glad to see he's back after a few days off. Definitely a mix of good and bad news in the latest tweet thread.