Ongoing Calgarians complaining about pedestrian bridges thread

[troutman]

Originally Posted by fotze

I've always wondered, you see building like this all over the city, is the original architect completely ashamed of it.

I'm sure they are frustrated. They have the talent to design interesting buildings, but their clients aren't interested in that. My wife designed warehouses and commercial buildings for a large developer - they only wanted boxes.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Kind of like when I was challenged earlier in the thread (obviously not by you but by someone else)?

It is very easy to find beauty in how the Pyramids or the Colosseum were made way back when. This bridge is a different kettle of fish. Nobody is going to come to Calgary to 'glance' at it.

I'll definitely go take a look next time I'm in Calgary. People might not come specifically for this bridge, but if more things like this are built and word gets out that Calgary is becoming a progressive cultural attraction, it definitely will add to the cause.

Im planning a trip to Spain and the moment, and one of things I want to go see is the Guggenheim in Bilbao....an industrial city that nobody ever heard of before Frank Gehry came to town. Don't underestimate the power of architecture. This might not be a big project, but you gotta start somewhere.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Kind of like when I was challenged earlier in the thread (obviously not by you but by someone else)?

It is very easy to find beauty in how the Pyramids or the Colosseum were made way back when. This bridge is a different kettle of fish. Nobody is going to come to Calgary to 'glance' at it.

That's a good argument if the poster was indeed comparing the pyramids to the pedestrian bridge. However, he clearly wasn't. He was just using the pyramids and the colosseum as examples to argue the statement "architecture is not beauty". Was it really that hard to follow?

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Besides, local firms are more than welcome to enter competitions worldwide. What has Gibbs Gage, probably the biggest architect in town who gets a ton of work, done anywhere that's even in the same ballpark as Norman Foster or Calatrava?

I work for one of the larger firms here in the city, and lots of our work comes from OUTSIDE of Calgary. China, India, Taiwan, UAE, other parts of Canada... these are where most of the competitions / work are. There's work in Calgary, too, but not to the level where you can find elsewhere.

Alas, there's been some pretty ballsy stuff proposed for Calgary, I can tell you that... but most of it gets changed or shot down by the client / stakeholders. Alot of this is due to Calgary's conservative, functional take to archtecture. The proposed Shaganappi development was a good example.

I have no problems saying that I am happy to see a Calatrava bridge in Calgary, much in the same manner that I am happy to see a Norman Foster project in Calgary as well. It is nice to see these world renowned architects showcasing their work in our city. A local firm could have designed these bridges too, but you know what? Sometimes it's not about the local guy, give a chance to some international firms. This is a win for architecture in Calgary no matter how you look at it.

Here's a good example - the new Cantos Music Centre. Completely raised the bar for design competitions in Calgary in the future. A phenomenal step in the right direction for this city, and a huge eye-opener to many levels of people all over the place.

As one of those 'local guys', more than anything else, I am honored that we can open up our doors to the rest of the world and tap its talents. As a fan of good design... this is a win for architecture in this city, regardless. This will open up doors for higher architectural standards in this city.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by troutman

I'm sure they are frustrated. They have the talent to design interesting buildings, but their clients aren't interested in that. My wife designed warehouses and commercial buildings for a large developer - they only wanted boxes.

I definitely feel for her. Unfortunately, that's why most of us leave. You can either stay and be frustrated, or get out of dodge and go somewhere where you can do good work and be utilized. Unfortunately what tends to happen is a lot of the the crap stays behind, who do the work that's out there with poor results, and perpetuate the vicious cycle of Calgary being ugly and not "creative friendly".

[Table 5]

And let me clarify, there is still a TON of talent in the city. I have friends back home who can out design me any day of the week, but are struggling more in their careers simply because of location.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by fotze

What about the transistor radio building, I bet the architect was just joking "lets draw this P.O.S and see what happens"..."Wholly fata, they approved it, lets see if they actually build it"

god, that looks so stupid. where did they come up with that idea, look at their c*ck and say "lets build a giant circumsized penis" ????

[Hack&Lube]

How much of this $25 million cost goes to the architecture firm? It's ridiculous. It's decent looking but it's just a bridge. I always laugh when things like this or a logo for "The Heart of the New West" Calgary slogan ends up costing millions of dollars in fees going to the design/marketing companies.

Why not just get highschool and university students in Calgary to come up with designs for a good price to pay for their educations or something? There is a alot of young creative talent in our youth. Then get an engineering firm (of which this city abounds with) to sort it out and you are done.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I definitely feel for her. Unfortunately, that's why most of us leave. You can either stay and be frustrated, or get out of dodge and go somewhere where you can do good work and be utilized. Unfortunately what tends to happen is a lot of the the crap stays behind, who do the work that's out there with poor results, and perpetuate the vicious cycle of Calgary being ugly and not "creative friendly".

Good design talent often does not stay in Calgary long, and I suspect it's because of the penny-pinching conservative clients who will cut corners to meet the bottom dollar.

I think at some point, architects don't just want to do work; they want to do interesting work, and it's few and far between in Calgary, unfortunately.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

How much of this $25 million cost goes to the architecture firm? It's ridiculous. It's decent looking but it's just a bridge. I always laugh when things like this or a logo for "The Heart of the New West" Calgary slogan ends up costing millions of dollars in fees going to the design/marketing companies.

Why not just get highschool and university students in Calgary to come up with designs for a good price to pay for their educations or something? There is a alot of young creative talent in our youth. Then get an engineering firm (of which this city abounds with) to sort it out and you are done.

Calatrava's fee was both reasonable compared to other (local) designers, and has world-class name value associated with it.

No problems here.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

How much of this $25 million cost goes to the architecture firm? It's ridiculous. It's decent looking but it's just a bridge. I always laugh when things like this or a logo for "The Heart of the New West" Calgary slogan ends up costing millions of dollars in fees going to the design/marketing companies.

Why not just get highschool and university students in Calgary to come up with designs for a good price to pay for their educations or something? There is a alot of young creative talent in our youth. Then get an engineering firm (of which this city abounds with) to sort it out and you are done.

I think the architect's fee is about $2 million. In this case, Calatrava is the architect and the structural engineer. More than the average consultant's fees for a bridge, but not really outrageous.

High school and university students would have a hard time designing ANY bridge that would even work here, never mind one that looks good.

[KTrain]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

How much of this $25 million cost goes to the architecture firm? It's ridiculous. It's decent looking but it's just a bridge. I always laugh when things like this or a logo for "The Heart of the New West" Calgary slogan ends up costing millions of dollars in fees going to the design/marketing companies.

Why not just get highschool and university students in Calgary to come up with designs for a good price to pay for their educations or something? There is a alot of young creative talent in our youth. Then get an engineering firm (of which this city abounds with) to sort it out and you are done.

You want a high school or college students designing a bridge that is going to carry millions of people across it each year?

I think we need to leave these sorts of things to the professionals.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Good design talent often does not stay in Calgary long, and I suspect it's because of the penny-pinching conservative clients who will cut corners to meet the bottom dollar.

I think at some point, architects don't just want to do work; they want to do interesting work, and it's few and far between in Calgary, unfortunately.

Quite honestly though, on the whole design quality where I am in Toronto isn't any better. In fact there are few cities in North America as a whole that truly have embraced a culture of great architecture. Chicago is one that comes to mind. But even it has only a few standouts and a massive swath of mediocrity.

Calgary as a young and tiny city is coming along. Projects like the Calatrava Bridge, The Bow, The Water Centre, Cantos, the urban design of The Bridges development, plans for the East Village, the new Epcor Expansion (Bing Thom), design competition for the Central Library are certainly getting the ball moving in the right direction. Even the general standard of mundane condo towers has increased quite dramatically in the last 5-8 years from the crap you saw in the west end to a reasonably acceptable sort of Vancouver standard of architecture such as Waterfront, Stella/Nova, Kahanoff, Battistella's Colours, or Erickson's Concord Pacific project.

[c.t.ner]

A great blog post from DJkelly that breaks down the good and the bad of the Calatrava/Peace Bridge.

http://djkelly.ca/2009/07/loving-or-...-as-it-sounds/

Pro: You can’t build a bridge for much less than this. The rumour we could have done it for $2 million simply is not true. It is also important to note the City of Calgary is not paying for this bridge out of their property tax revenues. The money for the bridge is coming from the Provincial Government as part of the Municipal Sustainability Initiative funding. As such, there are a number of “strings” attached to the agreement that mean Council can’t do much with the money except build a bridge. (Remember the Bronconnier/Stelmach public battle of about a year ago? This is what that was about. Bronco wanted to be able to spend the money on other more pressing civic needs. He lost this part of the argument.) Because the money is unexpected and limited to only this use, it stands to reason that you might as well build a better bridge than you normally would have rather than giving the money back. (You’ll hear more from me in the future about provincial/municipal funding issues. It is this kind of messed up relationship that illustrates why we need a new deal for cities.

I think that is a key component of why this bridge exists. Overal I'm ecstatic with this bridge. I'm happy witht eh price tag, happy with the design and I think it's going to be a great piece of the urban (not just inner city) fabric. I see alot of similarities between this bridge and the Millenium bridge in London.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by KTrain

You want a high school or college students designing a bridge that is going to carry millions of people across it each year?

I think we need to leave these sorts of things to the professionals.

Asking high school students to design a building is like asking your local pump jockey to drill an oil-well, or your kid sister who has a calculator, to do your taxes.

Is that really how little people place emphasis on good design in Calgary? As if its some coloring contest?

[jammies]

Ah yes, the old "if I have no idea how it's done, it must be easy" argument. I don't care much for the look of the bridge, but I don't pretend I could have done something just as good. Many things that *look* simple actually aren't.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by KTrain

You want a high school or college students designing a bridge that is going to carry millions of people across it each year?

I think we need to leave these sorts of things to the professionals.

I think you missed this part in what he said:

Then get an engineering firm (of which this city abounds with) to sort it out and you are done.

Think of it as a "look competition", with professionals taking the winning look and making it practical and safe. Not a bad idea.. these college students don't turn into professionals as soon as they have a degree that can be hung from their wall.

[nik-]

The Toronto Raptors got their name through an public competition.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by nik-

The Toronto Raptors got their name through an public competition.

Your point?

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by fotze

He is an engineer but I don't think he is the engineer on this project. Stantec is doing that.

Stantec is just the local consultant for the project. I'm pretty sure all the main engineering calculations were already done by Calatrava's office, you, know, to make sure if the bridge actually can support the loads it needs to. For the bridge span anyway. Stantec probably just designs the footings the bridge will need, and prepares drawings for the pathway connections, stuff like that. All the stuff that doesn't have to be done by a higher priced consultant.