getting a little tired of the crack/meth heads

[you&me]

I maintain that rather than adding turnstiles and personnel to oversee them, increased patrols like Corsi indicated would have a far greater effect on the overall quality of the system.

You would likely:

1) Decrease fare evasion
2) Increase ridership from those that don't currently feel safe / want to deal with the shenanigans at stations
3) Eliminate the capital cost required to install the turnstiles in the first place

Paratransitfellow's indication that there would need to be an additional 7,000 daily (paid!) trips to cover the cost would only require a roughly 4% increase in ridership or ticket purchases... Seems likely to far exceed that.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Or have teams of 2 officers ride the train back and forth along the line, getting out at each station and going from one end to the other, dealing with whatever problems are there (if any), and then getting on the next train, proceeding to the next station, and so on. And if a report comes in of something happening 3 stations away, just go straight there.

Calgary Transit already employs 141 peace officers and 31 security guards.

They've recently increased that presence by 25% to deal with security concerns:

https://calgaryherald.com/news/calga...-safety-issues

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

So what you're saying is that they could easily do what I'm suggesting.

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Why would a transit system pay someone to stand there 20 hours/day at every station? Just do it at peak hours on high volume stations or stations where there is an issue.

Also, Translink here in Vancouver reported that after installing their gated system at a cost of $200M they saw a $40M/year increase in fare revenue. Factoring in the lifetime cost of the system they projected to see a $20M/year benefit.

That said, I don't think it's a good use of funds to deal with the social issues of homelessness and addiction. It seems unrelated to that apart from satisfying the people who don't want to see or come into contact with drug addicted or homeless people and it obviously wouldn't address any of the causes of those people's difficulties.

why do you want station attendents at peak hours? Would not the off-peak hours be the periods with great perception of Danger?

Example: 1 passenger waiting for a train with 5 drug users loitering at 10 pm

[TherapyforGlencross]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...rter-1.6731000

An Ontario court's decision that blocks the eviction of a Kitchener encampment could affect municipalities across Canada that are contending with tent cities of their own, according to legal experts.

The Ontario Superior Court of Justice decision released Friday says the Region of Waterloo isn't allowed to evict people living in tents on one if its vacant lots, at 100 Victoria St., because its shelter system didn't have enough beds for people experiencing homelessness.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

why do you want station attendents at peak hours? Would not the off-peak hours be the periods with great perception of Danger?

Example: 1 passenger waiting for a train with 5 drug users loitering at 10 pm

I wasn't really focused on the security issue as much as just the problem of relying on the honor system for payment. Just look at the Vancouver example and consider that their $40M/year increase in fares revenue reflects probably an excess of $40M of stolen fares per year prior to the gates. That's an issue of all kinds of regular riders stealing fares and freeloading on a system paid for by other riders. So, I totally acknowledge that people watching the turnstiles to ensure people pay their fares wouldn't be enhancing security all that much. They would mostly just be further reducing freeloading and increasing revenue, which would be most valuable during peak volume if worth it at all.

An additional $20M net/year like what Translink ended up with could probably go a pretty long way for increasing other security measures though, such as more security on trains and platforms.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

An additional $20M net/year like what Translink ended up with could probably go a pretty long way for increasing other security measures though, such as more security on trains and platforms.

Yeah, but they'd spend it on an arena for rich people instead.

[Gaskal]

I was with a few friends waiting at 8th Street station one time, we were all headed to a Roughnecks game just standing and conversing with each other.

Some random Filipino guy, smaller than Johnny - must have been like 5'6 and 150lb soaking wet, comes up to us all aggressively (holding a footlong from Subway too) going "Hey, we gonna have a problem? Anyone gonna have a problem here?"

I was with 5 friends, several of whom have various martial arts training, and two of my buds are big dudes, easily 6'0 200lb+. We were more confused than offended and just went "Uh....no?"

Guy just goes "Oh ok I just wanted to make sure the respect is there, it's all about the respect you know" and turns away. Then he turns back and goes "OK seriously for real though, we're not gonna have a problem right??". Got told a no again. Then he just walks off.

#### all these meth heads

[PepsiFree]

Sounds harrowing.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

I was with a few friends waiting at 8th Street station one time, we were all headed to a Roughnecks game just standing and conversing with each other.

Some random Filipino guy, smaller than Johnny - must have been like 5'6 and 150lb soaking wet, comes up to us all aggressively (holding a footlong from Subway too) going "Hey, we gonna have a problem? Anyone gonna have a problem here?"

I was with 5 friends, several of whom have various martial arts training, and two of my buds are big dudes, easily 6'0 200lb+. We were more confused than offended and just went "Uh....no?"

Guy just goes "Oh ok I just wanted to make sure the respect is there, it's all about the respect you know" and turns away. Then he turns back and goes "OK seriously for real though, we're not gonna have a problem right??". Got told a no again. Then he just walks off.

#### all these meth heads

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

I wasn't really focused on the security issue as much as just the problem of relying on the honor system for payment. Just look at the Vancouver example and consider that their $40M/year increase in fares revenue reflects probably an excess of $40M of stolen fares per year prior to the gates. That's an issue of all kinds of regular riders stealing fares and freeloading on a system paid for by other riders. So, I totally acknowledge that people watching the turnstiles to ensure people pay their fares wouldn't be enhancing security all that much. They would mostly just be further reducing freeloading and increasing revenue, which would be most valuable during peak volume if worth it at all.

An additional $20M net/year like what Translink ended up with could probably go a pretty long way for increasing other security measures though, such as more security on trains and platforms.

I'm too lazy to look deeply into it, but are you sure there is a causal link to that full increase?

A very quick google tells me they were installed circa 2011 contemporaneously with the smart-card rollout. And this is shortly after the Canada Line opened (more ridership). + population increase. + presumably fare increases.

The article I found said they estimated $7M per year in fare evasion (albeit before the installations)...in a bigger city.

The other thing is that not all fare-evaders will automatically buy a ticket; them not using the service is probably a net benefit, but the increased revenue is probably lower.

[chemgear]

https://globalnews.ca/news/9446682/o...er-encampment/

Ontario judge denies request to clear Kitchener encampment citing Charter violation

An Ontario judge has denied a municipality’s request to clear a homeless encampment, building on decisions out of British Columbia that he says establish a constitutional right for a person to shelter themselves if accessible indoor spaces aren’t available.

The ruling comes after two decisions where Ontario judges ruled against residents fighting to prevent encampment evictions at city parks in Toronto and Hamilton. In those cases, the judges found there was adequate space to accommodate “all of the cities’ homeless,” Valente wrote.

Couples testified about being separated from one another when they stayed at shelters, people who use drugs noted the harm of abstinence-based policies, and others talked about the “weight of uncertainty” around available shelter space on any given night.

“If the available spaces are impractical for homeless individuals, either because the shelters do not accommodate couples, are unable to provide required services, impose rules that cannot be followed due to addictions, or cannot accommodate mental or physical disability, they are not low barrier and accessible to the individuals they are meant to serve,” the judge wrote.

[White Out 403]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

I've been loling for a few minutez

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I'm too lazy to look deeply into it, but are you sure there is a causal link to that full increase?

A very quick google tells me they were installed circa 2011 contemporaneously with the smart-card rollout. And this is shortly after the Canada Line opened (more ridership). + population increase. + presumably fare increases.

The article I found said they estimated $7M per year in fare evasion (albeit before the installations)...in a bigger city.

The other thing is that not all fare-evaders will automatically buy a ticket; them not using the service is probably a net benefit, but the increased revenue is probably lower.

So it sounds like they decided to put them in in 2011 but install took awhile (including because of issues).

According to this article https://www.google.com/amp/s/globaln...rking-out/amp/

A city councillor estimated half of the ~$40MM was from better collection, noting that the system more than paid for itself.

I think an estimate of $7MM underpayment with an actual of around $20MM suggests the estimates aren't very accurate, an issue I think is likely in Calgary as well.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

The irony about bringing race up is that this population is disproportionately white male.

I actually think it's one of the few topics where race is largely left out of the discussion because it's not ethnic minorities heavily present in the mix.
If the streets were full of Asian drug addicts, the narrative wiuld be "what's wrong with their community; they need to sort this out".

[jayswin]

It's not really irony though, as the gif was a direct response to the poster making a point of mentioning a specific persons race that they interacted with, not a commentary on homelessness overall.

Like if you had an argument at a grocery store and said "so this asian guy comes up to me". The response from many would be "umm, why mention the race?".

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

So it sounds like they decided to put them in in 2011 but install took awhile (including because of issues).

According to this article https://www.google.com/amp/s/globaln...rking-out/amp/

A city councillor estimated half of the ~$40MM was from better collection, noting that the system more than paid for itself.

I think an estimate of $7MM underpayment with an actual of around $20MM suggests the estimates aren't very accurate, an issue I think is likely in Calgary as well.

I think it's just hard to isolate causal links when so many variables change. I don't know that napkin math from a politician who may desire his own spin for whatever reason is particularly strong evidence. And the Vancouver context is simply very very different than here.


Also worth considering from that article:

While revenue is up, the number of tickets being handed out to fare evaders has dropped dramatically. Just over 33,000 tickets last year to 23,000 this year, a decrease of 29 per cent.

Again, we'd need a lot more details to factor if/how much revenue they lost from fines

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by chemgear

https://globalnews.ca/news/9446682/o...er-encampment/

Ontario judge denies request to clear Kitchener encampment citing Charter violation

An Ontario judge has denied a municipality’s request to clear a homeless encampment, building on decisions out of British Columbia that he says establish a constitutional right for a person to shelter themselves if accessible indoor spaces aren’t available.

The ruling comes after two decisions where Ontario judges ruled against residents fighting to prevent encampment evictions at city parks in Toronto and Hamilton. In those cases, the judges found there was adequate space to accommodate “all of the cities’ homeless,” Valente wrote.

Couples testified about being separated from one another when they stayed at shelters, people who use drugs noted the harm of abstinence-based policies, and others talked about the “weight of uncertainty” around available shelter space on any given night.

“If the available spaces are impractical for homeless individuals, either because the shelters do not accommodate couples, are unable to provide required services, impose rules that cannot be followed due to addictions, or cannot accommodate mental or physical disability, they are not low barrier and accessible to the individuals they are meant to serve,” the judge wrote.

Freeman on the land engaged.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by jayswin

It's not really irony though, as the gif was a direct response to the poster making a point of mentioning a specific persons race that they interacted with, not a commentary on homelessness overall.

Like if you had an argument at a grocery store and said "so this asian guy comes up to me". The response from many would be "umm, why mention the race?".

... who gives a sh-t? I mean, you're telling a story, using words to paint a picture. This story is about an interaction with a person, so they briefly described the person.

If you want to go down that road, why mention gender? Is the fact that they were a male particularly important to the story either? Does it change the absurdity of the behavior?

It would be completely disingenuous to insinuate that the poster's mention of race -- in this instance -- was done for some nefarious purpose like suggesting that their race was in any way contributory to their behavior or state of intoxication.

As someone of the beige persuasion myself, I don't particularly care one way or the other, but given the context here, it's kind of a pointless thing to harp on.

[blankall]

IMO the increasing problem is a symptom of far greater ills in society. Inflation and massive increases in living costs are going to push people on the edge over that edge. It's also a lot easier to just say F-it life generally, when there's no hope of owning a home, setting up a family, building wealth, etc....When you have double income families living in run down basement suites, where does that leave the people who used to live in those suites?

On top of that you have China flooding North America with highly addictive, cheap, and easily available chemicals.

There too many factors to push people onto the streets right now. Treating drug addiction is a start, but more like plugging a single of many holes.