Mike Smith's... woes? He blows? Eating crows? Who knows! (Also David Rittich exists!)

[Enoch Root]

I have to say, the quality of discussion on this sight has been really poor lately. So many people are much more focused on trying to label and discredit other posters than they are in actually adding to conversations. It is getting really tiring.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I have to say, the quality of discussion on this sight has been really poor lately. So many people are much more focused on trying to label and discredit other posters than they are in actually adding to conversations. It is getting really tiring.

Yeah, it's so much better to hear people try to label and discredit the entire board.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by transplant99

There is little question that Smith either needs to be better or get replaced somehow and at some point.

He is now the defacto back-up moving forward so he needs to put up those kind of numbers.

So where are his numbers in those regards?

Using those who have played at least 12 games (roughly a 1/3 of the schedule thus far) and assuming a backup plays 1/3 of a season (26 games)...lets extrapolate.

Smith is 36th in GAA.....so 5th among backups assuming the 31 starters are above him

47th in save %.....16th among backups assuming 31 starters are better.

21st in wins...again assuming other teams starters are better across the board he is way ahead of most. (I realize this is very flawed given his status at seasons start).

So, as a backup, and assuming he plays as he has all season, he is actually pretty good numbers wise even if the optics have been brutal.

Again, Rittich cant start them all and given what we have seen thus far, Smith is not a terrible option to play the backup role.

That should buy BT lots of time to see if he can address the issue this season or if he will have to wait until the draft when lots more options and certainly more value can be found.

Unless I am doing it wrong, according to NHL.com, only 50 goalies have played 12 games or more. That would make all those ranks out of 50. The most important stat is probably SA%, where he is 47th out of 50 goalies.

Out of goalies that played in 21 games (the number Smith has), he is 24th out of 24 in SA%, 20th in GAA and 19th in wins.

Considering the team was 1st in the West until a few days ago, it's not hard to see that Smith is holding the team back from being better. We could be building a cushion over other teams instead of having to battle and jostle for position all season.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

We could be building a cushion over other teams instead of having to battle and jostle for position all season.

The question is, how much better would the team be with a replacement-level backup instead of Smith? Because a replacement-level goalie is all you're going to get in mid-season without giving up assets that the team requires for other purposes.

The fact that no goalies have been traded since July suggests to me that nobody is willing to sell one at a reasonable price. I can't fault Treliving for not making a deal when no deals are being made at all.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Unless I am doing it wrong, according to NHL.com, only 50 goalies have played 12 games or more. That would make all those ranks out of 50. The most important stat is probably SA%, where he is 47th out of 50 goalies.

Out of goalies that played in 21 games (the number Smith has), he is 24th out of 24 in SA%, 20th in GAA and 19th in wins.

Considering the team was 1st in the West until a few days ago, it's not hard to see that Smith is holding the team back from being better. We could be building a cushion over other teams instead of having to battle and jostle for position all season.

Does it ever cross your mind that he’s the psychological cushion Riddich needs?

Burke yakking with Boomer the other day talked about how he’s beloved in that room. I agree there is a tipping point & management is keenly aware. But remember what they know that you do not. Yeah, psychology isn’t everything but it isn’t nothing either.

[SportsJunky]

As I said the other night, I think Smith will do ok as the backup goalie going forward. I appreciate that he lets in some bad goals but he's now the backup goalie letting in bad goals. If he was going to start 75% of the rest of the games then I'd join in on the hand-wringing. As long as the Flames get to the playoffs, Rittich should play every game after that.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

If that is the limiting factor and we have to stand pat because of it, then so be it.

I just don't think waiting for the sake of waiting or until it becomes a critical issue, are the best courses of action.

You make it seem like its a critical issue that must be dealt with immediately. It is neither.

The Flames have two goaltenders they have confidence in. Some of the fans have lost confidence in one of them. It doesn't mean the Flames have. Both goaltenders are capable of winning games.

There is no critical issue that must be dealt with immediately. The title of this thread is a complete overreaction as are some of the viewpoints laid out in this thread. Smith is not as incompetent as some feel he is. He's not the starter at the moment. He is a big part of the leadership group. He's likely not going anywhere this season.

The Flames will likely stand pat on goaltending. It makes the most sense long term. Some of you are focusing solely on the short term and Treliving as the GM will not be doing that. If you look at the big picture at how this team will compete over the next few years then sacrificing any significant assets just to improve 1/2 our goaltending this year makes zero sense at all. The Flames have young goalies they are confident in. They will likely be passing the mantle onto one of more of these young goalies in the near future. Any talk of Bobrovsky, trading 1st rounders is completely unrealistic IMO and a total panic suggestion. Treliving doesn't make panic moves based on his history.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I have to say, the quality of discussion on this sight has been really poor lately. So many people are much more focused on trying to label and discredit other posters than they are in actually adding to conversations. It is getting really tiring.

It's hard to have a reasonable discussion when people take unreasonable hyperbolic viewpoints. Smith is not as incompetent as the haters suggest he is. The goaltending issue is not as critical as the haters think it is. Sacrificing the long term to slightly improve our goaltending for this season makes no long term sense. Suggesting the Flames make a major move in goaltending makes no sense when it looks like they may have finally succeeded in developing a young goalie into a young starter.

Backup goalie ranks right up there with 13th/14th forwards and 7th defensemen as the least critical role on the team. You'd think from all the outcry that it was one of the most important.

The Smith is a massive problem that must go immediately camp and the Smith is our backup goalie for the rest of the season camp will never see eye to eye no matter what the quality of the discussion on this season is. Some people have made up their mind that Smith is finished and no amount of reasonable discussion will convince them otherwise. Some appear to be convinced that backup goaltending is an achilles heel preventing us from winning the cup this year. That to me seems crazy but I'm not sure I can talk anyone out of that opinion.

I will say that hyperbole tends to bring down any quality of discussion on this board. Just make your point. There's no reason to exaggerate it or blow it out of proportion.

[kukkudo]

Lots of Smith talk they guy won't be a Flame next year so why are people getting worked up. Just ride out the season and see what happens.

Either the Flames show they can take it to the next level win the division and win a playoff round or they drop in the standings and choke in the first round.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by kukkudo

Lots of Smith talk they guy won't be a Flame next year so why are people getting worked up. Just ride out the season and see what happens.

Either the Flames show they can take it to the next level win the division and win a playoff round or they drop in the standings and choke in the first round.

People are worked up because this is a really good hockey team and Smith is holding them back. It's not time to be patient anymore. This team needs to go for it, now.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

It's hard to have a reasonable discussion when people take unreasonable hyperbolic viewpoints. Smith is not as incompetent as the haters suggest he is. The goaltending issue is not as critical as the haters think it is. Sacrificing the long term to slightly improve our goaltending for this season makes no long term sense. Suggesting the Flames make a major move in goaltending makes no sense when it looks like they may have finally succeeded in developing a young goalie into a young starter.

Backup goalie ranks right up there with 13th/14th forwards and 7th defensemen as the least critical role on the team. You'd think from all the outcry that it was one of the most important.

The Smith is a massive problem that must go immediately camp and the Smith is our backup goalie for the rest of the season camp will never see eye to eye no matter what the quality of the discussion on this season is. Some people have made up their mind that Smith is finished and no amount of reasonable discussion will convince them otherwise. Some appear to be convinced that backup goaltending is an achilles heel preventing us from winning the cup this year. That to me seems crazy but I'm not sure I can talk anyone out of that opinion.

I will say that hyperbole tends to bring down any quality of discussion on this board. Just make your point. There's no reason to exaggerate it or blow it out of proportion.

In the modern NHL back up goalies play 30+ games on most teams. That’s far, far more important than 13th forward. It’s probsbly more important than 3rd line centre or #4 defensemsn.

[David Struch]

We need another Rick Wamsley.

(That deal was made March 7, 1988)

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

In the modern NHL back up goalies play 30+ games on most teams. That’s far, far more important than 13th forward. It’s probsbly more important than 3rd line centre or #4 defensemsn.

Not sure I'd go that far but you're right that I probably slightly underrated the importance of a backup with that statement. I think top 4 defensemen and 3rd line centre are more important as they are playing 100% of the games while healthy. Goalie is the most important position in the game but the backup only plays a quarter to a third of the time approximately. Guess I was guilty of some of the hyperbole I was complaining about lol. That said in the playoffs the backup sees almost no time unless the starter craps the bed. If Rittich starts all the playoff games then where is the issue? Do people really think we're going to acquire a starter better than Rittich mid season? That's massively unrealistic.

We do not auto lose with Smith. Smith doesn't always let in a weak goal. Sometimes we win even when we let in a weak goal. Smith may start letting in less weak goals. We may start playing Smith even less.

I just don't see this as a critical issue that must be solved immediately. And even if it were its not as simple to fix as people make it out to be. There aren't a wealth of teams who have clear upgrades in goal that are actually available for trade. How many goalies clearly better than Smith/Rittich are available and at what price? I'm not sure there's more than a handful and I'm sure the prices on some of them make them not a realistic option for Treliving.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by codynw

People are worked up because this is a really good hockey team and Smith is holding them back. It's not time to be patient anymore. This team needs to go for it, now.

Well that's your opinion. At what price though? You really think this is the year where we should be doing a Hull for Ramage/Walmsley type trade?

Is this the end of our window? Is it the start? I'd say its the very start of our window. Any trading of significant assets for a short term upgrade in goal makes zero sense to me. What's the urgency? Why do you only want to think short term and not long term? Why do you think the backup goaltender is the critical piece of a potential cup run? Will Smith be holding them back in the playoffs if he's sitting on the bench? How many assets are prudent to spend on a backup goaltender? How many available goaltenders are there that are significant upgrades on Smith? (I doubt there's many) What about potential chemistry issues moving Smith when he's apparently extremely popular in the room?

There's a lot of questions to be answered. Unless Treliving finds a crazy good deal on a goalie I think the obvious play is to ride out the season with the goalies we have an re-evaluate in the summer. I know that makes a lot of you uncomfortable but the alternative of overpaying for a goalie upgrade mid-season doesn't make a lot of long term sense. Treliving doesn't think only in the short term. He's trying to build a long term contender and not just go all in on this season.

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well that's your opinion. At what price though? You really think this is the year where we should be doing a Hull for Ramage/Walmsley type trade?

Is this the end of our window? Is it the start? I'd say its the very start of our window. Any trading of significant assets for a short term upgrade in goal makes zero sense to me. What's the urgency? Why do you only want to think short term and not long term? Why do you think the backup goaltender is the critical piece of a potential cup run? Will Smith be holding them back in the playoffs if he's sitting on the bench? How many assets are prudent to spend on a backup goaltender? How many available goaltenders are there that are significant upgrades on Smith? (I doubt there's many) What about potential chemistry issues moving Smith when he's apparently extremely popular in the room?

There's a lot of questions to be answered. Unless Treliving finds a crazy good deal on a goalie I think the obvious play is to ride out the season with the goalies we have an re-evaluate in the summer. I know that makes a lot of you uncomfortable but the alternative of overpaying for a goalie upgrade mid-season doesn't make a lot of long term sense. Treliving doesn't think only in the short term. He's trying to build a long term contender and not just go all in on this season.

The window definitely just opened, so a trade like the Hull one would be overkill. I just think a mid round pick for a better backup goalie would be a huge help right now. And I think it's helpful for two reasons. One, Smith is costing points right now. Two, they're a Rittich injury or him slipping a bit, away from a goaltending disaster.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by David Struch

We need another Rick Wamsley.

(That deal was made March 7, 1988)

True enough… but we certainly don't need to trade another Brett Hull to get him.

[David Struch]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

True enough… but we certainly don't need to trade another Brett Hull to get him.

Yeah, that's not what I was implying at all.

I say we need another Rick Wamsley as in a solid veteran back-up (like he was to the young Mike Vernon) that could give us a good three seasons or more of 30 + games per season.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Not sure I'd go that far but you're right that I probably slightly underrated the importance of a backup with that statement. I think top 4 defensemen and 3rd line centre are more important as they are playing 100% of the games while healthy. Goalie is the most important position in the game but the backup only plays a quarter to a third of the time approximately. Guess I was guilty of some of the hyperbole I was complaining about lol. That said in the playoffs the backup sees almost no time unless the starter craps the bed. If Rittich starts all the playoff games then where is the issue? Do people really think we're going to acquire a starter better than Rittich mid season? That's massively unrealistic.

We do not auto lose with Smith. Smith doesn't always let in a weak goal. Sometimes we win even when we let in a weak goal. Smith may start letting in less weak goals. We may start playing Smith even less.

I just don't see this as a critical issue that must be solved immediately. And even if it were its not as simple to fix as people make it out to be. There aren't a wealth of teams who have clear upgrades in goal that are actually available for trade. How many goalies clearly better than Smith/Rittich are available and at what price? I'm not sure there's more than a handful and I'm sure the prices on some of them make them not a realistic option for Treliving.

In my opinion, the only way Smith is a real problem is if the points he costs the Flames moves them out of 1st in the division. First in the conference would be nice, but not super important (he's probably already cost them that). First in the division is very important though. Getting games 5 and 7 at home in the first two rounds is a big advantage, and playing a wild card team in the first round is also a big bonus.

It's so hard to guess what price a good backup or 1B goalie would cost right now. They change hands so rarely mid-season.

I'd be willing to give up a prospect like Foo, Mangiapane, Rychel, Lazar or Quine and/or a 5th+ draft pick on a backup right now. If that isn't enough, then I guess hold out and wait for closer to the deadline when more teams will be giving up on the playoffs.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Not sure I'd go that far but you're right that I probably slightly underrated the importance of a backup with that statement. I think top 4 defensemen and 3rd line centre are more important as they are playing 100% of the games while healthy. Goalie is the most important position in the game but the backup only plays a quarter to a third of the time approximately.

The skaters play 100% of the games, but the goalie generally plays 100% of each game they play.

A backup goalie who plays 1/3 of the games is on the ice for the same amount of time as a forward or d-man who plays 1/3 of each game.

Your 3rd line centre can't be playing more than 20 minutes (1/3rd of the game) because then he would be the 1st line centre.

I'm not saying the backup is as important as first line players, but 2nd line/2nd pairing is about where I'd put it.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by David Struch

Yeah, that's not what I was implying at all.

I know. Still, the trouble with getting another goalie at this time is the cost of acquisition. It won't be Brett Hull steep, but it could be scary enough.

I wish we could get a Walmsley equivalent for a late draft pick or a B prospect. But there doesn't seem to be any such deal on the market, as goalies aren't moving at all.