[Rumour] Incoming Flames shake up

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

The best comparison for the Hamonic deal is what the Flames gave up for Jokinen.

2009-Mar-04 Traded from Phoenix Coyotes with round 3 pick in the 2009 draft (Josh Birkholz) to Calgary Flames for Matthew Lombardi, Brandon Prust and round 1 pick in the 2010 draft

This is the best comparable deal in terms of adding what was perceived to be a core piece.

The Flames had the right to defer the pick one year - which they did to draft Tom. The Coyotes then got Gormley with the pick the following year, which everyone freaked about as Gormley was highly thought of.

Which just goes to show how much time this one will take to really evaluate.

To be fair that trade goes down as one of the stinkers for the Flames as Gormley is irrelevant seeing the Flames may not have picked the same player. Even at that Treliving gave up more for Hamonic.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It won't even be close to the worst trade even if it doesn't pan out. Or even fourth worst.

"Currently a lottery pick" is a bit of a hyperbole. That doesn't mean what it used to.

I think he is a good number four, and that's in a down year for him. That's fair value for a mid first round and 2 seconds, if you look at the odds of those picks being any kind of impact players.

How can you say that with a straight face? Even the most positive, level headed fans would acknowledge if this trade doesn't work out it's one of the worst in franchise history because really this team hasn't made a large amount of blockbusters. There are a bunch of bad to middling trades in franchise history but as one poster stated you cannot discount the value of 1st and 2nd round picks as that is top currency in the NHL.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

To be fair that trade goes down as one of the stinkers for the Flames as Gormley is irrelevant seeing the Flames may not have picked the same player. Even at that Treliving gave up more for Hamonic.

I disagree. I think deals like Hamonic (even if it doesn't work out) and Jokinen don't come anywhere the deals that are truly awful (Gilmour, Savard, Giguere, Phaneuf, Kotalik, Regehr, etc).

Those are just off the top of my head but I think the Jokinen deal and those like it - aren't nearly as bad

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

I disagree. I think deals like Hamonic (even if it doesn't work out) and Jokinen don't come anywhere the deals that are truly awful (Gilmour, Savard, Giguere, Phaneuf, Kotalik, Regehr, etc).

Those are just off the top of my head but I think the Jokinen deal and those like it - aren't nearly as bad

You are seriously undervaluing the picks Treliving gave up.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You are seriously undervaluing the picks Treliving gave up.

Maybe you are over-valuing them and under valuing the player.
Is this how this one will be debated? Just with firm yet unproveable statements?

[kukkudo]

I like Treliving, but if the Islanders pick in in the top 5 that will go down as one of the worst trades easily. Hamonic has been decent I wouldn't say he has been good or great.

[zukes]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You are seriously undervaluing the picks Treliving gave up.

You are overvaluing them too.

I don't like trading picks, but, if ever there was a time that it is okay to do so it is now. The Flames have some good prospects that are nearing ready and more in the pipeline as shown by having 6 players in the World Juniors.

Don't get me wrong, we can't be trading more, as it will be imperative to get the cupboards re-stocked in the coming years, but the trades that have been made thus far are fine, and can even be compensated for with some good luck in the later rounds.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Maybe you are over-valuing them and under valuing the player.
Is this how this one will be debated? Just with firm yet unproveable statements?

This is really a pointless discussion at this point. If the Flames get a real coach and ride that D to "something", it's a fine trade. If it goes Tom Kurvers, then disaster...

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

I disagree. I think deals like Hamonic (even if it doesn't work out) and Jokinen don't come anywhere the deals that are truly awful (Gilmour, Savard, Giguere, Phaneuf, Kotalik, Regehr, etc).

Those are just off the top of my head but I think the Jokinen deal and those like it - aren't nearly as bad

Jokinen trade is an interesting comparable. Flames gave up comparable assets, kept an option on the pick and acquired what they thought would be their 1 center. I don’t believe anyone sees Hamonic as more than a solid 4 defenseman who can play up the lineup when needed.

I don’t know about all time worst trades. The Gilmour deal will hopefully be unique in that regard.

[Racki]

was Dalton Prout and Mangiapane the shakeup?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Maybe you are over-valuing them and under valuing the player.
Is this how this one will be debated? Just with firm yet unproveable statements?

It’s pretty clear the player was overvalued by Treliving. With better goaltending the team is at nearly the same pace as last season. Meanwhile the Islanders haven’t really missed him.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Racki

was Dalton Prout and Mangiapane the shakeup?

The "shake up" may be nothing more than a shot across the bow by management to the players and coaches.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Can you name them? I realize the Phaneuf and Gilmour trades will always be regarded as the worst and the Marc Savard trade was stupid but what other trade have the Flames ever given up so much futures? I don't think it's over dramatic at all.

Nah, it's very over-dramatic and glass half empty.

Teams have paid that for a rental. Hamonic is on a good value contract and brings a physical, stabilizing element to our top four that makes us deeper by having Stone in the bottom pairing.

It's definitely nowhere near as bad as you're trying to suggest despite his slow start (which isn't uncommon for a defender changing teams) and if he continues to play well it won't look so bad at all nevermind being in the running for the 'worst deal ever'.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It’s pretty clear the player was overvalued by Treliving. With better goaltending the team is at nearly the same pace as last season. Meanwhile the Islanders haven’t really missed him.

Once again:

The Isles are fighting for a playoff spot while trying to show their Franchise player they're a competitive team / franchise (or he might walk for nothing)

- and -

after moving Hamonic they are tied for the second most goals allowed in the NHL, behind only Airzona.

They are atrocious defensively this season, and not a team looking to rebuild.

[Poe969]

It won't end up being Hamonic for a top 3 pick. If BT knew it was a top 3 pick, he wouldn't have traded it. It was a chance at a top 3 pick. If the Flames kept the pick, there's no guarantee it would end up in the same spot. At the time of the trade, they were lottery tickets. Whatever they turn out to be isn't what they were at the time of the trade.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Maybe you are over-valuing them and under valuing the player.
Is this how this one will be debated? Just with firm yet unproveable statements?

Picks have established value. The price the Flames paid for Hamonic raised eyebrows around the league. It's not often you see someone who isn't a front-line star player traded for a 1st and two 2nds. We'd be laughing at the Oilers right now if they made that deal.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Picks have established value. The price the Flames paid for Hamonic raised eyebrows around the league. It's not often you see someone who isn't a front-line star player traded for a 1st and two 2nds. We'd be laughing at the Oilers right now if they made that deal.

We are / were laughing at them for essentially doing just that for Griffen Reinhart.

That is nowhere near the level of bad the Hamonic trade is. Steep? Sure, but he's a good defenseman on a good contract.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

This is really a pointless discussion at this point. If the Flames get a real coach and ride that D to "something", it's a fine trade. If it goes Tom Kurvers, then disaster...

This is definitely a true statement.

Given what the Flames problems were (and were known to be last summer) it is interesting that a 50-60 point center/winger was available for what probably could have been the 2018 1st and Brouwer. Instead we spent more assets and got Hamonic. Unless BT did not know that Schenn was on the market, getting Hamonic for more assets than it would have taken to get Schenn was an inferior move to grabbing Schenn in the summer and looks even worse now.

The Hamonic trade could end up looking decent if they make the playoffs and win a round or two. I personally would have been sniffing around Schenn myself, given the Flames inability to score at an elite level last season.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

This is definitely a true statement.

Given what the Flames problems were (and were known to be last summer) it is interesting that a 50-60 point center/winger was available for what probably could have been the 2018 1st and Brouwer. Instead we spent more assets and got Hamonic. Unless BT did not know that Schenn was on the market, getting Hamonic for more assets than it would have taken to get Schenn was an inferior move to grabbing Schenn in the summer and looks even worse now.

The Hamonic trade could end up looking decent if they make the playoffs and win a round or two. I personally would have been sniffing around Schenn myself, given the Flames inability to score at an elite level last season.

Agreed.

Price was step and I get why, but what I never understood is why are you giving up a premium price for the 4th best dman on your dman and not even addressing the biggest need on your team.

[direwolf]

Has the shake up happened yet? C'mon Flames, I don't have all day.