I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[Zarley]

Waiving Byron was mind numbingly stupid. It's as if he was listing to the fools on CP that were complaining about missed breakaways rather than realizing that he was one of the only players on the team consistently generating turnovers on the forecheck. It was just a bizarre decision - Raymond was the obvious choice to waive at that time.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

In the 2014 offseason, Brad Treliving signed a 31 year old borderline 3rd pair, realistically #7 right-side defenseman to 2.9 million x 3 years (through age 34)

In the 2014 offseason, Steve Yzerman signed a 28 year old high-end top pair defenseman to 4.5 million x 5 years (through age 33)

In the 2016 offseason, Brad Treliving signed a 31 year old 3rd liner with a power-play worthy right hand shot to 4.5 million x 4 years (through age 35)

In the 2016 offseason, Tim Murray signed a 28 year old bonafide first liner with a power-play worthy right hand shot and playmaking to 6.0 million x 7 years (through age 35)

These are free agent signings. Other GMs are simply getting much better value in the market. Assets got nothing to do with it. Cammalleri was deciding between here and New Jersey, those were his two options. he picked the team willing to give him a fair contract. Treliving lowballs good players and then gives mediocre-to-bad players a blank check.

In 2014, how may FAs were banging on the door to get signed in Calgary? Calgary had to overpay to get Engelland here. Calgary would have had to drastically overpay to get quality FAs that year - and they did just that with the Raymond signing. Stralman was not going to come to a team that just started their rebuild - and if so, nowhere close to that price. Also, Yzerman re-signed Coburn, much to the dismay of Lightning fans. I would rather have Engelland than Coburn, and Engelland is cheaper.

Troy Brouwer has CONSISTENTLY been the 2nd best goal scorer on his teams the last 4 out of 5 years. Yes, even on a team that features Ovie. This team needed a RW with some toughness and leadership, and who could pot some goals. Brouwer checks all of that off.

Management and fans alike on the Islanders wanted no part of Okposo's contract. I myself would be much more unhappy with it. Okposo has had a tonne of injuries in his career, and had long stretches of looking disinterested on the Islanders, while riding shotgun to Tavares. I have more faith in "Old man Brouwer" still being a value contract over its' life than I have on Okposo's. Okposo really isn't that good, but he is being paid. How many games has Brouwer missed in the last 5 seasons? How many has Okposo missed? Brouwer is more physical to boot - one of the huge criticisms of Islander fans was how he just disappeared for games and games, not doing anything at all to help the team, including physical play.

[flamesforcup]

Can someone explain how Monahan got tied for most money out of Mark Sheifele, Mackinnon, and Barkov even though he is clearly the worst out of them? Than u get Hamilton Signed to a huge contract making more the better young dman like Rielly and Klefbom and Larsson and Lindholm etc. These 2 signings i feel will handcuff this team. Than he decided to lowball our best player and doesn't sign him to an 8 year deal.

[FireGilbert]

I was a fan of Treliving but am starting to sour a bit. His trades have been average, his signings have been average, and it is too early to judge the drafting.

So that's a C for me. Still better than the Feaster D but there is lots of room for improvement.

[Lanny_McDonald]

The talent is there. The coaching staff is not. Special teams is all about systems and working hard. The systems suck and that is the area of the game costing us games. Get real folks. Look at what average special teams would accomplish for this team. We wouldn't be dead last in GAA and we would likely be near the top of the division. Treliving deserves some heat for his decisions, but the personnel on the ice is not a problem. The guys on the coaching staff are third rate.

[MoreDrank]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Waiving Byron was mind numbingly stupid. It's as if he was listing to the fools on CP that were complaining about missed breakaways rather than realizing that he was one of the only players on the team consistently generating turnovers on the forecheck. It was just a bizarre decision - Raymond was the obvious choice to waive at that time.

Or one of the three terrible goaltenders that the club was carrying.

[IceMan]

Originally Posted by flamesforcup

Can someone explain how Monahan got tied for most money out of Mark Sheifele, Mackinnon, and Barkov even though he is clearly the worst out of them? Than u get Hamilton Signed to a huge contract making more the better young dman like Rielly and Klefbom and Larsson and Lindholm etc. These 2 signings i feel will handcuff this team. Than he decided to lowball our best player and doesn't sign him to an 8 year deal.

Monahan currently leads his draft class in points and was drafted two years after Scheifele who has yet to score 30 goals in his career. Granted, he's off to a great start this year but Monahan has already accomplished that feat in his 2nd season.

There's no doubt Sean is struggling this year. Whether it's his back or just the fact that he's still adjusting to the new coaching staff, I'm not ready to write him off as some here are willing to. The guy just turned 22 last month and is coming off back to back 60+ point seasons in which he scored 58 goals.

Dougie Hamilton sure gets a lot of flack on here for a 23 year old defenseman who is coming off back to back 40+ point seasons. Him and Engelland have been in my opinion, the most consistent defenseman this year.

At the time of the trade, everyone said Calgary fleeced Boston. After he was signed, Treliving again was being praised for locking up a young 6'5" RH shot defenseman to a very team friendly contract. If you want to look at a contract that will handcuff this team in the future, look at the captain's not Dougie.

Also, how is signing Gaudreau to a 6 year, 6.75 million dollar contract a low ball offer? He and Giordano are the highest paid players on the team. I'm glad Brad didn't give in to his demands and sign him to an 8 year 7.5M+ contract. Johnny has been amazing in his 2 years here but he was an RFA and had no leverage. I think the contract is both fair for the team and player. Geez, I wish my boss would low ball me with an offer like that.

Look, Treliving has his faults and is not perfect. No GM is. Some of his moves I'm not fond of and this coaching staff is #1 on the list. Yes it's early and we just passed the quarter mark of the season but when you are last in PP, PK and GA, that's on the coaches and the man who brought these guys in. It's frustrating as fans but I'm willing to give Brad and these coaches at least until Christmas to see if they can turn it around.

[CliffFletcher]

Anyone who though this would be a 4-5 year rebuild were kidding themselves. The roster and group of prospects handed to Feaster had virtually no young talent. His hands and feet were tied first by King/ownership, who intitially wouldn't let him do a proper rebuild, and then by Iginla, who effectively would only go to two teams.

At that point, the Flames were faced with essentially building a team from scratch. That takes more than 4 years. If you want to blame anyone, blame Sutter and the Flames ownership for doing exactly what the Canucks are doing now, and persisting in their delusion about being able to avoid a full rebuid.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Waiving Byron was mind numbingly stupid. It's as if he was listing to the fools on CP that were complaining about missed breakaways rather than realizing that he was one of the only players on the team consistently generating turnovers on the forecheck. It was just a bizarre decision - Raymond was the obvious choice to waive at that time.

The Habs thank you for that guy. They didn't really need more small players, but the guy has the heart of a lion.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Anyone who though this would be a 4-5 year rebuild were kidding themselves. The roster and group of prospects handed to Feaster had virtually no young talent. His hands and feet were tied first by King/ownership, who intitially wouldn't let him do a proper rebuild, and then by Iginla, who effectively would only go to two teams.

At that point, the Flames were faced with essentially building a team from scratch. That takes more than 4 years. If you want to blame anyone, blame Sutter and the Flames ownership for doing exactly what the Canucks are doing now, and persisting in their delusion about being able to avoid a full rebuid.

While objectively true, you are just trying to rationalize the complete failure this organization has been this year. And to put it mildly, it is Oilers-level incompetence.

Nobody should have realistically expected we'd be the Chicago Blackhawks right now, but the complete and utter lack of progress is 100% entirely the fault of Brad Treliving. "But Feaster" is not a valid excuse. He is so far in the past now that he is completely and utterly irrelevant. It was Treliving that failed to fill the hole created when Hudler left and he hired incompetent coaches that came from loser franchises. And while his early cap management issues could have been expected to hold us back a little this year, we still should be a team trending up. That we are not is on his shoulders.

[Tinordi]

When expectations crash into reality the natural therapeutic action is to blame the GM.

[btimbit]

I agree with GrantedEV. We should have blown 6x7 on Okposo so we could watch him dissapear for weeks at a time only to come back and get injured. Oh and we should have re-signed Hudler so we could place him on IR and then eventually buy him out. Those would totally be good moves, and really fun to watch.


I get that you don't like Brouwer but really, those guys are your suggestions?

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by New Era

The talent is there. The coaching staff is not. Special teams is all about systems and working hard. The systems suck and that is the area of the game costing us games. Get real folks. Look at what average special teams would accomplish for this team. We wouldn't be dead last in GAA and we would likely be near the top of the division. Treliving deserves some heat for his decisions, but the personnel on the ice is not a problem. The guys on the coaching staff are third rate.

This is spot on. I read so much about the players not executing. They're trying, but what they're asked to do isn't working. Do they complain? Of course not. Team players. They'll keep doing whats asked of them. But our coaches keep trying to smack that square peg into the round hole.

The head coach tries to gameplan against himself, and the special teams coaches would appear to be too stubborn to know what they're trying is never going to work.

I was willing to give all of these guys a chance. The Gulutzan hiring was odd but I trust Treliving. The Cameron hiring was very odd, but maybe we'd see something that pointed to Ottawa being the issue and not Cameron.

3 games in I realized we had a problem. A lot of us did. Radio guys and web guys made fun of the fan base for screaming about the coaches.

We were right.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I think Brouwer has been fine - one of the more consistent forwards.

As I've said before, I think one of the hallmarks of good organizations is consistency. The organizations that lose perpetually (including this one) have constant turnover at key positions and within management.

Re-building an organization, that has been woefully thin on assets, doesn't happen over night.
Firing a GM every 3 years is a basically a guarantee that you will go nowhere forever.

He has shown to be a shrewd trader, good negotiator and overall has made more good moves than bad.

Give the man time.

Or fire him, bring someone new in and fire them in 3 years. Rinse and repeat. Like every other loser organization out there.

I agree that constant turnover is not a recipe for success.

That being said, even if one is to take a long term approach, i would imagine signs of progress of the organization are vital. We can look at positive events, or certain areas that the organization has qualitatively done well in (shrewd trader, good negotiator, etc) but in order to judge actual progress i would imagine looking at the quantitative results is a major indicator.

That's where i am currently at with Treliving and team. I don't really hate or disapprove many of his moves (there are the few that i do, but this list is definitely shorter than the ones i do approve of i think). However, if we ignore the high pick assets picked up due to the suckage, has his management brought this franchise closer to being a contender?

On the day he was hired, if we were told that 20 games into his 3rd season at the helm, the flames would be the 30th place team (point % wise) would we be comfortable to call it a success?

I like the GM, but my confidence level in his ability to build an NHL roster is definitely not rock solid. I am extremely curious on how he plays out this season.

If this team is unable to go on a massive run to get themselves firmly into the playoff picture, does he just ride this roster out, cut losses with the obvious UFAs, take the high pick, and essentially go into next year with the same core (using the freed up $ to manage the goaltending, and depth D that will be lost in engelland, wideman)? Or will he look at his core and vets (giordano, brodie, brower, frolik, backlund) and do something more dramatic be it add more 1st round picks/prospects to load up on the rebuild path that we are clearly in the middle of, or will he try to use these peices to sub in new core vets to get this to a competitive team next year.

What i'm looking for is (ugh feaster term coming) some intellectual honesty from our management. If the team isn't really ready to take the next steps, and is likely to flounder in mediocraty again next year, then why not go heavy on acquiring more high picks or developing top prospects of other clubs.

[dustygoon]

I think Treliving is fine. But he seems reluctant to address problems quickly. "It's a process" means give it some time and then we will decide. That works sometimes, but sometimes hiring fast and firing faster is the best course of action. It happened with our goalies last year. Its happening with our coaches this year.

I'm sure we don't have to look hard to find instances in our own lives when someone hired around us seems great on paper after lots of due diligence, but once in the door, they just don't click. You never know until they are actually in the seat working. You have to fire them for the best for everyone involved.

The specialty teams problems can be addressed pretty quickly. Just do it already.

[Vinny01]

I feel that Treliving felt he needed a big change in the type of coach he was going to have for this team. Going from hard nosed task master in Hartley to soft spoken buddy coach in Gulutzan has not looked good. I feel the work ethic this team had under Hartley is missing now. I really wish the team could have brought Darryl back this season as he would have been the perfect coach for this group.

Elliott appears to be a poor choice, Chaisson was a garbage pickup, Brouwer had been pretty decent, and Johnson has been good while Versteeg has been injured. Luckily the Flames had the exact player they needed fall into their laps at the draft as Tkachuk has been a marvelous fit.

Treliving was looking home and cooled until this season. Good trades, decent drafts, and the roster building looked good on paper. As this season falls off the rails the heat definitely is getting turned up on Brad. I really hope he gets at least one more chance to hire a coach as I feel he is doing a good job for the most part. He signed some good contracts and more often than not we are pleased with his trade results.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by dustygoon

I think Treliving is fine. But he seems reluctant to address problems quickly. "It's a process" means give it some time and then we will decide. That works sometimes, but sometimes hiring fast and firing faster is the best course of action. It happened with our goalies last year. Its happening with our coaches this year.

I'm sure we don't have to look hard to find instances in our own lives when someone hired around us seems great on paper after lots of due diligence, but once in the door, they just don't click. You never know until they are actually in the seat working. You have to fire them for the best for everyone involved.

The specialty teams problems can be addressed pretty quickly. Just do it already.

IMO this is a good quality as fans can jump to conclusions but you want your GM to have some patience. There aren't a lot of quick fixes to be made in the NHL these days as trades are complicated so any moves made out of haste usually end up for the worst.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by btimbit

I agree with GrantedEV. We should have blown 6x7 on Okposo so we could watch him dissapear for weeks at a time only to come back and get injured. Oh and we should have re-signed Hudler so we could place him on IR and then eventually buy him out. Those would totally be good moves, and really fun to watch.


I get that you don't like Brouwer but really, those guys are your suggestions?

The Okoposo suggestion was mind-boggling stupid, like when he wanted to re-sign Smid past this season at one point. Willing to chalk both of those up to game thread emotions though.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by New Era

The talent is there. The coaching staff is not. Special teams is all about systems and working hard. The systems suck and that is the area of the game costing us games. Get real folks. Look at what average special teams would accomplish for this team. We wouldn't be dead last in GAA and we would likely be near the top of the division. Treliving deserves some heat for his decisions, but the personnel on the ice is not a problem. The guys on the coaching staff are third rate.

This all the way. Trelving has put together a decent team but got it all wrong with coaching. He can still correct that.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Zarley

Waiving Byron was mind numbingly stupid. It's as if he was listing to the fools on CP that were complaining about missed breakaways rather than realizing that he was one of the only players on the team consistently generating turnovers on the forecheck. It was just a bizarre decision - Raymond was the obvious choice to waive at that time.

Raymond was waived WITH Byron. Also, only one of the two needed to be waived. Byron was coming off surgery for several broken things, a high ankle sprain etc. and a terrible camp. I believe management commented they wanted waiver flexibility and also give Byron the ability to have a recovery in the minors. Byron literally spent a bit of time recovering with the Canadiens club prior to playing his first game. Byron likely would have cleared waivers too if Kassian had not been involved in his incident.

I mean it's a moot point, because management didn't need to waive him and actually intended to send Byron down as something like a conditioning stint. It wasn't bizarre. It was logical.