ECF - (A2) Tampa Bay Lightning vs. (M2) Pittsburgh Penguins - Penguins Win 4-3

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Not to pick on you but Fleury is not "hot garbage". You can debate on his worth in the playoffs but he's been a solid starting goaltender over his career. I think some people should go take a look at Kippers career stats as you will see he had some down years where his save percentage hovered around .900. Goaltenders that play long enough will typically have some down years.

As for Kucherov he's their franchise forward so there's absolutely no way Yzerman even considers trading him seeing Stamkos is likely leaving via free agency.

Is Kucherov their Franchise forward after Stamkos? Tyler Johnson says hello. What about Palat?

I agree that with the likely departure of Stamkos, Kucherov will be depended on more than ever. That said, ive been pretty underwhelmed by him in these playoffs. If it wasnt for Drouin taking the spotlight, I think many critics would be pointing the finger at Kucherov for some of the lack luster play at times by TB.

As for Fleury, I remember Darren Pang and Pierre Mcquire saying, back when Fleury had just come into the league that they had to go see this guy live. He was so impressive with his raw talent.

Fleury of 5-8 years ago is not the same Fleury we see today. Sure he was decent this past season, but just that, decent. We need a guy who is going to be a franchise goalie.

Not a declining goalie on a massive contract who is losing his job to a rookie. Sure Murray is an absolute stud, but Fleury should not be out-classed by his rookie backup. Also Fleury still has some serious gaffs at times, which he has shown his entire career.

You thought Hiller having atleast one bad goal a game was frustrating? I feel in my heart of hearts, Fleury would be just as frustrating.

Originally Posted by nightfx

Probably the same reason why Treliving didn't trade Gaudreau after being eliminated by the ducks last year.

Thats fair. But Gaudreau is one of 3 players who are going to carry this team forward.

In TB's case, they have a wide range of solid young talent and no I dont feel that Kucherov is the straw that stirs the drink on that team. I feel Johnson is.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

As for Fleury, I remember Darren Pang and Pierre Mcquire saying, back when Fleury had just come into the league that they had to go see this guy live. He was so impressive with his raw talent.

Fleury of 5-8 years ago is not the same Fleury we see today. Sure he was decent this past season, but just that, decent. We need a guy who is going to be a franchise goalie.

Not a declining goalie on a massive contract who is losing his job to a rookie. Sure Murray is an absolute stud, but Fleury should not be out-classed by his rookie backup. Also Fleury still has some serious gaffs at times, which he has shown his entire career.

You thought Hiller having atleast one bad goal a game was frustrating? I feel in my heart of hearts, Fleury would be just as frustrating.

None of this has anything to do with you having called him "Hot Garbage". That was a grossly hyperbolic exageration.

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Thats fair. But Gaudreau is one of 3 players who are going to carry this team forward.

In TB's case, they have a wide range of solid young talent and no I dont feel that Kucherov is the straw that stirs the drink on that team. I feel Johnson is.

That's like suggesting because we have Monahan and Gaudreau and you feel that Gaudreau stirs the drink that we could move Sam Bennett.

It was asinine to suggest Tampa looks at moving one of the best young players because of an average playoff round.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Also it's completely ridiculous. He's "underwhelmed" you? He's SECOND IN THE NHL in playoff goal scoring. Third in points. He obliterated the Wings and Isles. What the hell does it take to impress you? And what "lackluster" play from Tampa Bay? They wrapped up each of their first two opponents in five games and are now in a game 7 against the best team in the league down the stretch who just dispatched the President's Trophy winner - all while missing their captain and franchise player, their starting goalie and (until a couple of games ago) their #2 defenseman.

This has been the most nonsensical string of posts I've seen on this forum all playoffs. Seriously, just stop.

[Benched]

gotta say I agree, your post was pretty crazy.

I'm not much on Fleury either, but he's still a decent goaltender. Better than Dallas's tandem.

And Kucherov isn't going anywhere. Palat, Kucherov, and Johnson are that teams future. They build around them and Hedman, and maybe Stralman, and probably Vasilevsky.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

None of this has anything to do with you having called him "Hot Garbage". That was a grossly hyperbolic exageration.




That's like suggesting because we have Monahan and Gaudreau and you feel that Gaudreau stirs the drink that we could move Sam Bennett.

It was asinine to suggest Tampa looks at moving one of the best young players because of an average playoff round.

Wow buddy, youre just looking to pick my posts apart, thats fine. It isnt going to change how I feel.

I think MAF is a terrible goalie playing for a good team. He was great early on in his career. He is not the same goalie now. And with his contract and absolute uncertainty, he is too damn risky for the Flames.

Ive watched Fleury quite a bit this season. He does not steal games. He has a temdancy to let softies in, especially when the team absolutely can not afford it.

There is a reason why Murray is back in net with a sub .900 Sv% over the last 3-4 games.

Because Fleury is not trusted. And you think hes the solution for the Flames?

Cmon.. Pick away at the "Hot Garbage" comment, sure... Fill your boots. But you have yet to convince me, with any sort of objective information, why Fleury would be a solution for the Flames.

As for TB,

I will concede there is likely no way Yzerman moves Kucherov, and Kuch is likely the best player on the team, just having a bad round.

But for the record, I havnt been advocating for Kucherov to be moved.

I asked a question on if anyone thinks Yzerman would consider moving Kucherov based on his performance as of late.

This has nothing to do with the Flames or comparing players...

If Gaudreau became a perimeter player in the playoffs with very little sign of turning it around, giving up on plays, not battle for the puck, making terrible passes and being checked very easily, then I would hope that any teams GM would look at that and question if that player is going to be a solution going forward.

Im not saying pulling the trigger, but a prudent GM would evaluate that and question if that element of the team needs to change to make the team more successful as a whole.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Also it's completely ridiculous. He's "underwhelmed" you? He's SECOND IN THE NHL in playoff goal scoring. Third in points. He obliterated the Wings and Isles. What the hell does it take to impress you? And what "lackluster" play from Tampa Bay? They wrapped up each of their first two opponents in five games and are now in a game 7 against the best team in the league down the stretch who just dispatched the President's Trophy winner - all while missing their captain and franchise player, their starting goalie and (until a couple of games ago) their #2 defenseman.

This has been the most nonsensical string of posts I've seen on this forum all playoffs. Seriously, just stop.

No.. I will continue to talk hockey and risk being Flamed by you guys. I dont mind you guys disagreeing. It makes for good hockey talk and perhaps I can learn something.

If im wrong, in your eyes, thats fine.

Lets try and keep the personal insults out of it.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Wow buddy, youre just looking to pick my posts apart, thats fine. It isnt going to change how I feel.

I think MAF is a terrible goalie playing for a good team. He was great early on in his career. He is not the same goalie now. And with his contract and absolute uncertainty, he is too damn risky for the Flames.

Ive watched Fleury quite a bit this season. He does not steal games. He has a temdancy to let softies in, especially when the team absolutely can not afford it.

There is a reason why Murray is back in net with a sub .900 Sv% over the last 3-4 games.

Because Fleury is not trusted. And you think hes the solution for the Flames?

Cmon.. Pick away at the "Hot Garbage" comment, sure... Fill your boots. But you have yet to convince me, with any sort of objective information, why Fleury would be a solution for the Flames.

As for TB,

I will concede there is likely no way Yzerman moves Kucherov, and Kuch is likely the best player on the team, just having a bad round.

But for the record, I havnt been advocating for Kucherov to be moved.

I asked a question on if anyone thinks Yzerman would consider moving Kucherov based on his performance as of late.

This has nothing to do with the Flames or comparing players...

If Gaudreau became a perimeter player in the playoffs with very little sign of turning it around, giving up on plays, not battle for the puck, making terrible passes and being checked very easily, then I would hope that any teams GM would look at that and question if that player is going to be a solution going forward.

Im not saying pulling the trigger, but a prudent GM would evaluate that and question if that element of the team needs to change to make the team more successful as a whole.

So what you're saying is you don't mind saying outlandish things that have no basis in reality and the ensuing criticism doesn't bother you and won't prevent you from saying such things moving forward.

Got it. Good to note as it will make much of your failed logic easier to bypass in the future. Because calling one of the top 15 goalies in the NHL "hot garbage" and suggesting a team trades one of their best young players because he's only top 3 in playoff scoring was sure some cutting edge stuff.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

So what you're saying is you don't mind saying outlandish things that have no basis in reality and the ensuing criticism doesn't bother you and won't prevent you from saying such things.

Got it. Good to note as it will make your poor attempts at logic easier to bypass in the future. Because calling one of the top 15 goalies in the NHL "hot garbage" and suggesting a team trades one of their best young players because he's only top 3 in playoff scoring was sure some cutting edge stuff.

Wow... now youre saying I am suggesting TB trade Kucherov? I havnt suggested anything of the sort.

I asked, would Yzerman consider it? I got a response of "No" and would the Flames consider moving Gaudreau after the Flames lost to the Ducks.

The "No" being the simple answer was fine. It answered my question.

The Latter gave me some perspective and made me realize that it would be foolish for Yzerman to even consider it at this point.

Your response is trying to get something out of nothing.

Yes, I feel Fleury is "Hot Garbage" which is a term used quite regularly when discussing athletes. Would you be less argumentative if I would have described Fleury as

Untrustworthy
Too expensive
Too Old
Has terrible breakdowns mentally
Has some random gaffs that cost his team
Lost his job to a rookie backup and given the chance to steal the spot back and fails miserably?
And perhaps has concussion problems.

All those together = Hot Garbage and no thank you to Fleury. Top 15 goalie in the league? Well there were some really poor goalies this season. The Flames had 3 of them.

So.. Fleury was better than 12 other goalies this season excluding the Flames goalies? I dont know if thats the formula to I would use to sum up Fleury's season/ past few years.

[Weitz]

2nd in goals and 3rd in points and +14 is underwhelming.

I learned something today.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by Weitz

2nd in goals and 3rd in points and +14 is underwhelming.

I learned something today.

This Series...?

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

This Series...?

This series:

2 goals, 7 assists, +2, averaging just under 20 minutes a game. Thats pretty productive. He is above 1ppg in this series alone. Not sure what more he can do other than maybe score more GWG.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by dammage79

This series:

2 goals, 7 assists, +2, averaging just under 20 minutes a game. Thats pretty productive.

Wow, really? I have watched the entire series and to me, he hasn't been nearly that productive.

Clearly I stand corrected on the production aspect of his game.

Or caught up in the Drouin hype. Column A and column B I guess.

As wrong as I apparently am about Kucherov, I stand fast on the opinion of Fleury.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Wow, really? I have watched the entire series and to me, he hasn't been nearly that productive.

Clearly I stand corrected on the production aspect of his game.

Or caught up in the Drouin hype. Column A and column B I guess.

As wrong as I apparently am about Kucherov, I stand fast on the opinion of Fleury.

Hey, each to their own. But given the gong show the goaltending was last year, I'll take a top 15 goalie in a heart beat. Given the market you're not going to get much better than Fleury's numbers. On paper the player makes the Flames a playoff team. reality might be different given how you never know how any one player will fit into a team dynamic. But with established goalies like Fleury, it's a safer bet to assume that he'd fit in just fine and provide the kind of stability the team needs to push for the playoffs.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Hey, each to their own. But given the gong show the goaltending was last year, I'll take a top 15 goalie in a heart beat. Given the market you're not going to get much better than Fleury's numbers. On paper the player makes the Flames a playoff team. reality might be different given how you never know how any one player will fit into a team dynamic. But with established goalies like Fleury, it's a safer bet to assume that he'd fit in just fine and provide the kind of stability the team needs to push for the playoffs.

I don't think it's safe to assume anything when it comes to Fleury.

It's just too risky to give up assets at this point.

The last thing I think Fleury would add is stability.

But I'm done. Thanks for helping me kill some time guys.

Gonna be a fun game 7

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

I don't think it's safe to assume anything when it comes to Fleury.

It's just too risky to give up assets at this point.

The last thing I think Fleury would add is stability.

But I'm done. Thanks for helping me kill some time guys.

Gonna be a fun game 7

We'll agree to disagree then. I still have nightmares about Ramo/Hiller. Fleury is nowhere near them. In a good way.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

This Series...?

It's important to remember that, not only is a single series just a handful of games and a mere two-weeks on the calendar (he could be fighting an injury for instance), but it is also ONE matchup. Maybe his line doesn't match up well against whoever they are playing (I think they were playing HBK last night).

You can't judge a player on one series. You can't even judge them on one playoff season, IMO.

Give it 6 to 8 playoff series, then you can tell what kind of a playoff performer you have.

It never ceases to amaze me how much people judge based on 'lately'. One favorable matchup and a guy is a superstar. One bad matchup and another guy is thrown out with the trash.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

It's important to remember that, not only is a single series just a handful of games and a mere two-weeks on the calendar (he could be fighting an injury for instance), but it is also ONE matchup. Maybe his line doesn't match up well against whoever they are playing (I think they were playing HBK last night).

You can't judge a player on one series. You can't even judge them on one playoff season, IMO.

Give it 6 to 8 playoff series, then you can tell what kind of a playoff performer you have.

It never ceases to amaze me how much people judge based on 'lately'. One favorable matchup and a guy is a superstar. One bad matchup and another guy is thrown out with the trash.

That's more than fair. And thats why I was reluctant to ask the question if Yzerman would consider it.

But yeah, I did consider he could be injured.

For the last couple games I've just been wanting so much more from Kucherov, without knowing what's up behind the scenes.

But, I already conceded that I was likely wrong. Just wanted to discuss it a bit. But I was shown why Yzerman isn t likely to consider it.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by IgiTang

Wow... now youre saying I am suggesting TB trade Kucherov? I havnt suggested anything of the sort.

I asked, would Yzerman consider it? I got a response of "No" and would the Flames consider moving Gaudreau after the Flames lost to the Ducks.

The "No" being the simple answer was fine. It answered my question.

The Latter gave me some perspective and made me realize that it would be foolish for Yzerman to even consider it at this point.

Your response is trying to get something out of nothing.

Yes, I feel Fleury is "Hot Garbage" which is a term used quite regularly when discussing athletes. Would you be less argumentative if I would have described Fleury as

Untrustworthy
Too expensive
Too Old
Has terrible breakdowns mentally
Has some random gaffs that cost his team
Lost his job to a rookie backup and given the chance to steal the spot back and fails miserably?
And perhaps has concussion problems.

All those together = Hot Garbage and no thank you to Fleury. Top 15 goalie in the league? Well there were some really poor goalies this season. The Flames had 3 of them.

So.. Fleury was better than 12 other goalies this season excluding the Flames goalies? I dont know if thats the formula to I would use to sum up Fleury's season/ past few years.

I'm saying that you're using gross hyperbole to try and make a point, which is why everyone has pointed out you sound like you're out to lunch.

It's fine to suggest you don't want Fluery here or don't like him.

But using a term like "hot garbage" kills any room for context.

You should look up what context means, because you seem to be completely devoid of it.

Fleury has been a top flight #1 starter in this league over the last few seasons. Beyond that he's won a cup and taken his team to the finals.

If he's "hot garbage", there are only 10 or so guys in the world who are not. That is what context is.

If you wouldn't spew hyperbole and think about things before you type (asking if a team should consider trading a young budding star because of a ten day sample size) you wouldn't have everyone pointing out how outlandish you sound (which seems to be something you're very sensitive about).

[Huntingwhale]

[RyZ]

Some of you guys are nuts. We all know Fleury has had some troubles in the playoffs, but calling him "hot garbage" or saying that he had "1 good year" is side splittingly laughable.

Barring injury, he's almost a lock to finish his career with the 3rd most wins in NHL history (behind only Brodeur and Roy) and has the GAA and S% to match the other guys in top 10.

This season he was top 10 in both GAA and S% among goalies with over 1500 mins played (equal to about 25 GP).

He's not my 1st choice either, but the hyperbole in here makes me wonder about how knowledgeable the posters making these claims are.