Ortio on Waivers [Update: Clears]

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Alberta_Beef

You think 3 goalies screwed the start of the season? I keep hearing this sentiment, but all that means is the goalies are mentally fragile already. It's not like the Flames kept 3 goalies going for months, they had 3 goaltenders for a whole two weeks.

IMO the 3 goaltender system was a complete and utter disaster that definitely played a role in the poor start. Yes the goaltenders are professionals and expected to overcome this and play their best but if you look at it from Ortio's perspective he has a decent preseason and then immediately starts the season as 3rd string and the odd man out. In his mind he's probably wondering what else could he have done to earn the backup job? I imagine his confidence was not as high as it could have been given this.

Given time Ramo has eventually come around to being back to normal for him (below average NHL goaltender) and I imagine Hiller would eventually get back to a level of play on par with last season but make no mistake, all three goaltenders played below AHL level to start the season and you have to point the finger at the unconventional 3 goaltender system that nobody ever uses for it.

I really like Treliving but this is strike one for him. Simply embarrassing how the organization handled the situation and this poor start looks good on them all. Let's be fair here and admit if is was the Oilers management that brought this situation upon their organization we would be happily posting how much of a disaster it was in the Oilers are no good thread. The 3 goaltender situation was simply no good.

[Dajazz]

Uhm, Ortio had a poor/mediocre preseason and pretty much everybody on this forum recognized it. Quite frankly, he hasn't impressed apart from a game or two in the NHL and after a total of 20 games in this league he is below 90%.

Opportunities or not, every year there is a cinderella story where a young goalie steals the #1 spot and runs with it, or at least shows that they are ready for it and challenges. Ortio has pretty much shown nothing at all in the NHL, while being half decent in the AHL, which is pretty much on par with what's expected from a late round goalie pick.

The fact that he's Finnish and that there is a remote connection with Kipper is a curse as the expectations are blown out of proportion. He cleared waivers, is yet to get a proper multi-year contract and couldn't challenge Hiller or Ramo who were horrible to even grab a start in twelve games. I sincerely doubt the flames' coaching staff are idiots and he sits for a reason.

Perhaps he'll switch it on and turn in to a solid starting goalie someday, but the whole potential argument is lost on me, he appears pretty meh in all departments.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

IMO the 3 goaltender system was a complete and utter disaster that definitely played a role in the poor start. Yes the goaltenders are professionals and expected to overcome this and play their best but if you look at it from Ortio's perspective he has a decent preseason and then immediately starts the season as 3rd string and the odd man out. In his mind he's probably wondering what else could he have done to earn the backup job? I imagine his confidence was not as high as it could have been given this.

Given time Ramo has eventually come around to being back to normal for him (below average NHL goaltender) and I imagine Hiller would eventually get back to a level of play on par with last season but make no mistake, all three goaltenders played below AHL level to start the season and you have to point the finger at the unconventional 3 goaltender system that nobody ever uses for it.

I really like Treliving but this is strike one for him. Simply embarrassing how the organization handled the situation and this poor start looks good on them all. Let's be fair here and admit if is was the Oilers management that brought this situation upon their organization we would be happily posting how much of a disaster it was in the Oilers are no good thread. The 3 goaltender situation was simply no good.

Why does the poor start "look good on them"? Because they didn't guarantee a roster spot to an inexperienced goalie?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Why does the poor start "look good on them"? Because they didn't guarantee a roster spot to an inexperienced goalie?

There comes a time in a goalie's development when you fish or cut bait. The Flames stuck the hook in their thumb, got tangled in line, and fell out of the boat.

[Tinordi]

How should the Flames have handled this situation differently?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

How should the Flames have handled this situation differently?

They should have made him the starter despite any fumbles in practice or terrible games.

"Earned, not given" actually only applies to vets we don't care for much

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Why does the poor start "look good on them"? Because they didn't guarantee a roster spot to an inexperienced goalie?

Come on Jiri you are smarter than that. This all started in the summer when Treliving made the rookie mistake of signing a player on July 1st based on a trade that he thought he had in the bag but was not completed. Rule number one is to have the trade completed prior to signing the replacement. While I imagine he will learn from this mistake the fact is that July 1st was the genesis of this mess. Problem number two is that they did guarantee a roster spot to an inexperienced goaltender because he's had a roster spot for the first quarter of the season. If he was "inexperienced" as you say and not worthy of the backup role the correct call was to do what the Canucks did the season before in the identical situation and put the goaltender through waivers at the start of the season to end any controversy. Instead they continued to carry 3 until the damage was done. The poor start of this team is as much in the lap of Treliving as it is Hartley and the players.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Why does the poor start "look good on them"? Because they didn't guarantee a roster spot to an inexperienced goalie?

Man, you've got a hate on for Ortio. How is he supposed to get experience?

He could've possibly gotten the Ramo treatment? Get to play multiple games in a row despite less then desired results?

Ortio played his part in ####ting the bed on the 2 games he got to play but I don't get why some people can't see how Hartley fumbled the ball on this.

The same thing is going on with other youngsters. Again, it's hard to screw up Monahan, Gaudreau and Bennett even Eakins could get them right. Everything else has been to play veterans even though they suck over younger players. Look at where Wotherspoon is today. Nakladal comes up and doesn't see a minute of ice-time.

Grant actually earned a role and spot but he was sent down? why did that happen? Earned Never Given crap is spewed all the time yet the guy earns it and they send him back to same his waiver status. Who cares if he falters down the road then waive him for now let him keep his earned job.

Granlund, get ready to face to faith. I'll admit if I'm wrong but I can totally see Granlund being a healthy scratch multiple games before he is sent down.

Hartley is a joke.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by kehatch

The best way to spot a losing argument. Find someone posting a snapshot of the season and ignoring everything that went on around it.

The fact that Ramo played well in an 8 game sample doesn't change the fact that goaltending was dreadful but Hartley still chose to sit Ortio despite many opportunities to ply him.

Another way to spot a losing argument is to look for people like you rebutting comments out of context.

Certainly our goaltending was horrid to start the season. That was why Ramo was initially demoted to Stockton, and it is why Ortio got in, and then got sat back down.

But the simple truth is, that "snapshot of the season" is especially relevant in context: Ramo has been a solid goalie for us for much of November. And it also happened to be a period where we had numerous breaks between games, so there was no risk of overworking a goalie. Any coach in the NHL will ride a goalie playing well in that situation. If Ramo didn't have that strong stretch, Ortio would have played more. Don't blame Hartley, blame Ramo for outperforming Ortio.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Dajazz

Uhm, Ortio had a poor/mediocre preseason and pretty much everybody on this forum recognized it. Quite frankly, he hasn't impressed apart from a game or two in the NHL and after a total of 20 games in this league he is below 90%.

Opportunities or not, every year there is a cinderella story where a young goalie steals the #1 spot and runs with it, or at least shows that they are ready for it and challenges. Ortio has pretty much shown nothing at all in the NHL, while being half decent in the AHL, which is pretty much on par with what's expected from a late round goalie pick.

The fact that he's Finnish and that there is a remote connection with Kipper is a curse as the expectations are blown out of proportion. He cleared waivers, is yet to get a proper multi-year contract and couldn't challenge Hiller or Ramo who were horrible to even grab a start in twelve games. I sincerely doubt the flames' coaching staff are idiots and he sits for a reason.

Perhaps he'll switch it on and turn in to a solid starting goalie someday, but the whole potential argument is lost on me, he appears pretty meh in all departments.

This is so very very wrong. Ortio shutout the A-team of the Avalanche in their own building with Calgary's AHL/Junior players..

Some people have such short memories.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Another way to spot a losing argument is to look for people like you rebutting comments out of context.

Certainly our goaltending was horrid to start the season. That was why Ramo was initially demoted to Stockton, and it is why Ortio got in, and then got sat back down.

But the simple truth is, that "snapshot of the season" is especially relevant in context: Ramo has been a solid goalie for us for much of November. And it also happened to be a period where we had numerous breaks between games, so there was no risk of overworking a goalie. Any coach in the NHL will ride a goalie playing well in that situation. If Ramo didn't have that strong stretch, Ortio would have played more. Don't blame Hartley, blame Ramo for outperforming Ortio.

Oh yes,
Nov 3 - 5 Goals on 41 shots. 0.873 sv% Ramo, You get the next start cuz you saved 36 shots.

Nov 10 - 4 Goals on 31 shots. 0.871 sv% Ramo, You still get the next start cuz you know we have 3 games in next 5 days, need you used to getting beat a lot.

Nov 12 - He losses again. 3 goals on 29 shots.

No 13 - Now we have a back to back and you've lost 2 in a row. Nope you will stay in the net until that other idiot Hiller is ready to play.

Thats what I call Always Earned Never Given.

Jack Adams Winner Coach Hartley.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Man, you've got a hate on for Ortio. How is he supposed to get experience?

Noting that the team isn't going to cave into some fans' short-sighted preferences is not the same has having a hate on for a player.

He could've possibly gotten the Ramo treatment? Get to play multiple games in a row despite less then desired results?

Ortio might have - had Ramo not taken the ball and run when he got into multiple games in a row. Blame Ramo for that, not Hartley.

Ortio played his part in ####ting the bed on the 2 games he got to play but I don't get why some people can't see how Hartley fumbled the ball on this.

Because Hartley didn't.

The same thing is going on with other youngsters. Again, it's hard to screw up Monahan, Gaudreau and Bennett even Eakins could get them right. Everything else has been to play veterans even though they suck over younger players. Look at where Wotherspoon is today. Nakladal comes up and doesn't see a minute of ice-time.

Waaaahhh! I'm crying because the coach is trying to win games and not play kids who the team obviously doesn't feel is ready for full time play in the NHL. Waaaah! I want to see us throw these kids to the wolves. Waaaah!

Grant actually earned a role and spot but he was sent down? why did that happen? Earned Never Given crap is spewed all the time yet the guy earns it and they send him back to same his waiver status. Who cares if he falters down the road then waive him for now let him keep his earned job.

If you are going to cry about a player being caught in a numbers game, prepare to keep crying as long as you follow the NHL. Because it's been a thing forever, and it will be a thing forever.

Granlund, get ready to face to faith. I'll admit if I'm wrong but I can totally see Granlund being a healthy scratch multiple games before he is sent down.

Waaaaah! Waaaaah! Waaaaah!

Hartley is a joke.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

IMO the 3 goaltender system was a complete and utter disaster that definitely played a role in the poor start. Yes the goaltenders are professionals and expected to overcome this and play their best but if you look at it from Ortio's perspective he has a decent preseason and then immediately starts the season as 3rd string and the odd man out. In his mind he's probably wondering what else could he have done to earn the backup job? I imagine his confidence was not as high as it could have been given this.

Given time Ramo has eventually come around to being back to normal for him (below average NHL goaltender) and I imagine Hiller would eventually get back to a level of play on par with last season but make no mistake, all three goaltenders played below AHL level to start the season and you have to point the finger at the unconventional 3 goaltender system that nobody ever uses for it.

I really like Treliving but this is strike one for him. Simply embarrassing how the organization handled the situation and this poor start looks good on them all. Let's be fair here and admit if is was the Oilers management that brought this situation upon their organization we would be happily posting how much of a disaster it was in the Oilers are no good thread. The 3 goaltender situation was simply no good.

TWO WEEKS. If Ortio can't handle that situation for 2 weeks he will never make it in the NHL, it's not like the Flames let it drag on very long but with the way people use it as an excuse you would think they dragged it on for months.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Noting that the team isn't going to cave into some fans' short-sighted preferences is not the same has having a hate on for a player.



Ortio might have - had Ramo not taken the ball and run when he got into multiple games in a row. Blame Ramo for that, not Hartley.



Because Hartley didn't.



Waaaahhh! I'm crying because the coach is trying to win games and not play kids who the team obviously doesn't feel is ready for full time play in the NHL. Waaaah! I want to see us throw these kids to the wolves. Waaaah!



If you are going to cry about a player being caught in a numbers game, prepare to keep crying as long as you follow the NHL. Because it's been a thing forever, and it will be a thing forever.



Waaaaah! Waaaaah! Waaaaah!

I really don't know why you're crying so much. Your mommy take away your soother?

[CliffFletcher]

A) Carrying three goalies on an NHL roster is vanishingly rare.

B) Carrying three goalies on an NHL roster is universally regarded as a bad thing.

So how did the Flames find themselves in this situation? What unforeseen events forced their hand and left them with no choice but to start the season with three goalies on the NHL roster, when this is something virtually every other team in the NHL manages to avoid every year?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Come on Jiri you are smarter than that. This all started in the summer when Treliving made the rookie mistake of signing a player on July 1st based on a trade that he thought he had in the bag but was not completed. Rule number one is to have the trade completed prior to signing the replacement. While I imagine he will learn from this mistake the fact is that July 1st was the genesis of this mess. Problem number two is that they did guarantee a roster spot to an inexperienced goaltender because he's had a roster spot for the first quarter of the season. If he was "inexperienced" as you say and not worthy of the backup role the correct call was to do what the Canucks did the season before in the identical situation and put the goaltender through waivers at the start of the season to end any controversy. Instead they continued to carry 3 until the damage was done. The poor start of this team is as much in the lap of Treliving as it is Hartley and the players.

I guess I still don't understand why it "looks good on them".
They made an error in judgement which is going to happen and they are paying the consequences - but I don't have the view that the 3 goal system de-railed the season like some do. It's a good narrative I guess, but any goalie worth his salt should be able to play through such a situation.
But the phrased "looks good on them" is usually reserved for people who basically deserve their fate. I don't think that's the case here.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Another way to spot a losing argument is to look for people like you rebutting comments out of context.

Certainly our goaltending was horrid to start the season. That was why Ramo was initially demoted to Stockton, and it is why Ortio got in, and then got sat back down.

But the simple truth is, that "snapshot of the season" is especially relevant in context: Ramo has been a solid goalie for us for much of November. And it also happened to be a period where we had numerous breaks between games, so there was no risk of overworking a goalie. Any coach in the NHL will ride a goalie playing well in that situation. If Ramo didn't have that strong stretch, Ortio would have played more. Don't blame Hartley, blame Ramo for outperforming Ortio.

Your still focusing on the 8 games and ignoring the rest. Ramo was near the bottom of the NHL in every single measurable metric before Hartley decided to give Ramo that string of games. He was terrible to start that string as well. Sure it was under the premise that he was stopping the goalie rotation. But is it just a coincidence he decided to start that as soon as Hiller got hurt? Is it a coincidence that he is finally stopping it now that Hiller is back?

Hartley didn't want to play Ortio, plain and simple. He went out of his way to not play him. Agree with the decision if you want to. But it is what it is.

I don't agree with it. Giving a goalie fresh off of waivers a predetermined string of starts regardless of performance certainly doesn't speak to the "always earned" mantra. Sitting another goalie for a month while the other goalies are terrible doesn't speak to the mantra. Neither does sitting him again after he doesn't perform well in two games after sitting for a month.

"Always earned" defined the culture that made us successful last season. But I haven't seen much of it this season. In fact there is a distinct lack of accountability.

[PeteMoss]

You can look at it two ways - neither looks good on Treliving:

1) Ortio isn't good enough to be in the NHL - then why give him a contract that gives him a one-way deal this year? Why keep him around to rot on the bench for months?

2) Ortio is good enough to be in the NHL - just didn't get a chance - why sign Ramo when he's shown to be below average at best? Why keep Hiller/Ramo around to start the year - send one down to Stockton - neither has shown to be anything more than below average, so its no big loss.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

You can look at it two ways - neither looks good on Treliving:

1) Ortio isn't good enough to be in the NHL - then why give him a contract that gives him a one-way deal this year? Why keep him around to rot on the bench for months?

2) Ortio is good enough to be in the NHL - just didn't get a chance - why sign Ramo when he's shown to be below average at best? Why keep Hiller/Ramo around to start the year - send one down to Stockton - neither has shown to be anything more than below average, so its no big loss.

I think this is a situation where the coach and GM are not on the same page.

Hartley is on record as hating having 3 goalies. He picked his 1 and 2 as Ramo and Hiller. From his perspective Ortio wasn't in the conversation.

Meanwhile the GM needs to see Ortio play. He has two pending free agents and one pending RFA in net. He needs to know what he has in Ortio. Plus he didn't want to expose Ortio to waivers.

But it's concerning when a GM and coach are not on the same page. Ramo is put on waivers by the GM but is played in a record number of consecutive starts when he comes back. He does that over the guy the GM insisted stayed on the roster.

Both are at fault. The GM should have pushed the issue immediately with one of the goalies going down. But the coach needs to adapt better. Your one and two aren't cutting it and you have access to a three. It's silliness to not give that option a fair crack.

[GioforPM]

The examples of young players not being given a chance is Wotherspoon (played from meh to not very good in his chances), Grant (9 games is a decent shot IMO, and he was good in a couple games and a non-factor in the others) and Nakladl (age 27 and basically signed to do what he is doing now - be insurance for a bottom pairing role).