YLYL Thread Sexism Discussion (split from Gay Teen thread).

[Bootsy]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

That's completely unfair to the people you're responding to and the vast majority of members who view the YLYL thread.
The type of comments you're mentioning, come from a very, very small portion of users and have been condemned by almost everyone in this thread.

I agree, in the past I've only briefly checked out the YLYL a few times for the pictures and never paid much attention to the commentary.
I did enjoy the hot Olympians thread ( and had no problem with the female posters posting men in that thread) I thought both were fine, and voted to keep as is.

After all the negative comments about the YLYL thread from a few posters in this thread particularly the female members I decided to have a look back to see what all the fuss was about. I went back a few months only to find the 2 posts with the most thanks were posts made by photon rightfully chastising another poster's harsh and childish comments about a picture posted.
I then used the search this thread function since it is such a big thread of over 300 pages and 4 years old using the words Eastern girl says are common in there like "bang" "destroy" "wreck" .... Tap and hit unfortunately were to short for the search function to find. The results found in over 300 pages and 4 years , is that those terms were barely used at all and when the terms were used it wasn't in the context she implied. I'm sure there is some negative comments I missed doing it this way but using the results as an example shows how exaggerated the problem is. Anyone can check for themselves to see.

Basically I think this has been a witch hunt by members who do not even go into the YLYL thread other than to find something to be outraged about, trying to shine the thread into a more negative light just for their own social-political reasons.

I'm sure there is the odd questionable comment in there but not to the degree portrayed by the members against it in here, and no more than other countless threads in the off topic section. And if there is a questionable remark reporting that singular post to a moderator is easy enough to do ,rather than banning an entire thread.

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by Bootsy

I agree, in the past I've only briefly checked out the YLYL a few times for the pictures and never paid much attention to the commentary.
I did enjoy the hot Olympians thread ( and had no problem with the female posters posting men in that thread) I thought both were fine, and voted to keep as is.

After all the negative comments about the YLYL thread from a few posters in this thread particularly the female members I decided to have a look back to see what all the fuss was about. I went back a few months only to find the 2 posts with the most thanks were posts made by photon rightfully chastising another poster's harsh and childish comments about a picture posted.
I then used the search this thread function since it is such a big thread of over 300 pages and 4 years old using the words Eastern girl says are common in there like "bang" "destroy" "wreck" .... Tap and hit unfortunately were to short for the search function to find. The results found in over 300 pages and 4 years , is that those terms were barely used at all and when the terms were used it wasn't in the context she implied. I'm sure there is some negative comments I missed doing it this way but using the results as an example shows how exaggerated the problem is. Anyone can check for themselves to see.

Basically I think this has been a witch hunt by members who do not even go into the YLYL thread other than to find something to be outraged about, trying to shine the thread into a more negative light just for their own social-political reasons.

I'm sure there is the odd questionable comment in there but not to the degree portrayed by the members against it in here, and no more than other countless threads in the off topic section. And if there is a questionable remark reporting that singular post to a moderator is easy enough to do ,rather than banning an entire thread.

Great post. That's my thoughts in a nut shell as well.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Bootsy

I agree, in the past I've only briefly checked out the YLYL a few times for the pictures and never paid much attention to the commentary.
I did enjoy the hot Olympians thread ( and had no problem with the female posters posting men in that thread) I thought both were fine, and voted to keep as is.

After all the negative comments about the YLYL thread from a few posters in this thread particularly the female members I decided to have a look back to see what all the fuss was about. I went back a few months only to find the 2 posts with the most thanks were posts made by photon rightfully chastising another poster's harsh and childish comments about a picture posted.
I then used the search this thread function since it is such a big thread of over 300 pages and 4 years old using the words Eastern girl says are common in there like "bang" "destroy" "wreck" .... Tap and hit unfortunately were to short for the search function to find. The results found in over 300 pages and 4 years , is that those terms were barely used at all and when the terms were used it wasn't in the context she implied. I'm sure there is some negative comments I missed doing it this way but using the results as an example shows how exaggerated the problem is. Anyone can check for themselves to see.

I'm sure there is the odd questionable comment in there but not to the degree portrayed by the members against it in here, and no more than other countless threads in the off topic section. And if there is a questionable remark reporting that singular post to a moderator is easy enough to do ,rather than banning an entire thread.

The existence of the thread itself is seen as harmful by the female posters here, and seems to encourage the societal reg that suggests scrutinising a women by her appearance is A-OK.

flameswin most recently had probably the best post that thread has seen in the time I've been around. It was two beautiful women, dressed normally, and he talked about what it is that makes them awesome (and while he didn't specifically name them, he rightfully assumed more should know them).

If every post was "Check out this girl/guy, here's who they are, here's what makes them 'hot' as a person" instead of the nameless parade of "Look, something with boobs!" then I think you'd have a totally different outlook on the thread. Instead, it's not about hot "women", because a woman is a lot more than just her body, it's just "hot bodies", and it reduces these people down to that. No name, sometimes no face, rarely an explanation of who they are (and often a "I was too distracted to notice!"), and overall not much interest in treating them like full human beings, but just tittie picks to ogle over.

As has been said, that's totally an issue in society too, but that doesn't mean CP has to wait to make that change for the better. Even the comments when GirlySports brought up the volleyball player, a whole lot of "I don't get it" and "Well I guess she's alright."

If it was truly about appreciation, then those comments (even innocent in intent) would cease to exist. Instead it's about judgement and titilation.

Originally Posted by Bootsy

Basically I think this has been a witch hunt by members who do not even go into the YLYL thread other than to find something to be outraged about, trying to shine the thread into a more negative light just for their own social-political reasons.

I wanted to address this separately. A lot of times when something is being brought up as an issue that doesn't have an impact on someone, they tend to label it in a way that de-values it. This is not a witch hunt, it has nothing to do with the level of frequency one visits the YLYL thread, and most importantly did not manifest itself because someone had to find something to be outraged about. Not to mention the fact that it isn't a socio-political issue (though that did have a nice ring to it) and is really just a social issue.

Dismissing the harm that the female posters on here feel this thread causes as nothing more than a found opportunity for outrage is really indicative of the whole issue here.

I guess out of curiosity, knowing the harm it does (even if you don't believe it to be true), what's the benefit of keeping it? What benefit does the thread bring to the community on it's own merits that would make any harm caused irrelevant?

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by flameswin

... So I stopped using that, too. And really that's what I hope this thread and the eventual removal of the YLYL thread will do; Cause people to take a step back and go "Okay, this isn't just about the thread, it's about our culture on the board. Who's being marginalized? How am I offending them and making them feel like they don't fit on CP? Am I a decent person, and should therefore just simply make an effort to be more inclusive?

I always get a chuckle when the user "This post is terrible" thanks someone's post, but this specific post is an example of the need for a "This post is great" account. I'm only joking, of course, but I wanted to say something to indicate that I felt a simple 'thanks' wasn't enough. This is one of the best posts in the entire thread. Cheers!

Originally Posted by Shnabdabber

I get the criticizing angle, or disagreeing which can create constructive conversation, what I am asking about is outright negative language that religious groups may find offensive that contributes nothing to the dialogue?

I can only speak for myself but I cringe just as much when I read the destructive comments towards religion and religious people on this forum as I do regarding some of the things brought up in this thread and flameswin's excellent post quoted above. I don't really understand why this was brought up.

Secondarily, as photon mentioned, religious belief is something that people choose. Gender, sexual orientation and race are things that people are, having no say in them. Being discriminatory towards people in any of these areas is just as absurd as being prejudiced against people based on which is their dominant hand. That being said, you right-handed people are a real backwards lot.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Secondarily, as photon mentioned, religious belief is something that people choose. Gender, sexual orientation and race are things that people are, having no say in them. Being discriminatory towards people in any of these areas is just as absurd as being prejudiced against people based on which is their dominant hand. That being said, you right-handed people are a real backwards lot.

Agree 100%. So it would seem that this topic is also being discriminatory towards hetero men. The thread in topic is a very real case of freedom of choice, choose to enter or choose not to. To eliminate it would be just as discriminatory to the mature hetero males who frequent the thread without doing anything wrong to anyone. It's a place to share appreciation for the women we are attracted to and present the diversity in each others preferences. And it's not like 99% of those photos are of normal folk you see on the street, they're professionally done by women who freely made the choice to do those photos to freely share with the world.

Does that mean the immature posters who made these disparaging comments that brought this topic to life ruin the whole thing? It really should not.

And like it's been said many time already throughout this debate, the mature frequenters of the thread police it pretty well anyways. Those comments are never let off of the hook and dealt with.

I'd never go into a hot male thread if I knew it was something I would not enjoy perusing. So why limit the choice to make one if somebody was so inclined? It's a freedom that someone who chooses to express should be permitted to.

Let's not helicopter parent to death the entire community. Freedom of choice should never be limited.

[jayswin]

^^^^^^^^

It's like you didn't read a single post from our female members in this thread.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

I guess out of curiosity, knowing the harm it does (even if you don't believe it to be true), what's the benefit of keeping it? What benefit does the thread bring to the community on it's own merits that would make any harm caused irrelevant?

The ladies have said that the pictures don't tend to bother them, the commentary and the comments/attitudes in other threads do.

So it seems that instead of getting rid of the thread, it should be kept and moderated/self-policed like it is for negative comments, and folks can watch (like we tend to) for issues popping up in other threads. If someone seems an unrepentant sexist, send them to this thread for a read. If that doesn't work...they may not be the sort of person you want around the boards anyhow.

The whole "close the thread" argument kind of feels like a 'group slap', punishing everyone for the misinformed ways of a few. And some of those few may not even be posting/reading YLYL, in the first place.

knowing the harm it does (even if you don't believe it to be true)

To address this very specific point...If I don't believe the harm it's doing, regardless of what others say, it doesn't matter. Since I don't believe the harm, I don't have a problem with the action. This is essentially the very crux of the "we just want you have more empathy" argument. To see the other side, acknowledge it, and to consider your actions a bit more. But first you have to see the harm. Or at least acknowledge that someone else is feeling it.

I will say that this thread has reaffirmed my decision to post the kind of pics I do, in the manner I do instead of trying to 'please' folks for 'likes' (like I started out doing). I will likely cut back on the frequency and while I was trying to be conscientious in other threads, I will put more effort into it, as a couple other posters have pointed out, these kinds of changes take time to realize (I too, grew up when 'fag' wasn't a homosexual slur, had to get out of the habit of using it.) It's a process that takes time and a willingness to change.

To address Eastern Girl's point about language and intent...when I share a pic, it's because I found it while surfing elsewhere, and my thought was "Wow, this is a great shot! I want to share it with folks!" It just happens that I really like women (and starscapes/landscapes, I love Digital Blasphemy).

Is the YLYL thread sexist? I don't think that in and of itself, it is. But it's helped me find/avoid some sexist posters, which I do find valuable info.

[Chill Cosby]

To get a little clearer of an answer, I'll clarify my question and turn it into a two-parter (just for anyone who enjoys the thread):

1. What is the benefit from the thread that is gained from the thread? (What does it ADD to the community?)

2. Unless the benefit is immense, why does a consideration rest on being able to see it personally, vs taking the world of those whom it harms?

I find I'm quite curious about both. I'd really like to know the benefit that makes the thread worth having, likewise, I want to know where the line is drawn on action regarding things that harm others. I'm not a visible minority (white male!) but I've never relied on relating to what it's like to be discriminated based on look in order not to do it. If a minority makes it known that something is harmful to them, I'm pretty happy taking that opinion seriously and not doing whatever it is that causes the issue.

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

To get a little clearer of an answer, I'll clarify my question and turn it into a two-parter (just for anyone who enjoys the thread):

1. What is the benefit from the thread that is gained from the thread? (What does it ADD to the community?)

2. Unless the benefit is immense, why does a consideration rest on being able to see it personally, vs taking the world of those whom it harms?

I find I'm quite curious about both. I'd really like to know the benefit that makes the thread worth having, likewise, I want to know where the line is drawn on action regarding things that harm others. I'm not a visible minority (white male!) but I've never relied on relating to what it's like to be discriminated based on look in order not to do it. If a minority makes it known that something is harmful to them, I'm pretty happy taking that opinion seriously and not doing whatever it is that causes the issue.

Are we now gonna do a cost benefit analysis of all new threads created on Calgarypuck?

Chilly you are now in charge of the analysis for every thread. Time to quit your day job, this could be time intensive. Start with the pizza thread.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by flameswin

^^^^^^^^

It's like you didn't read a single post from our female members in this thread.

I did, came to my own conclusion and made a post about it. Issue?

[WhiteTiger]

What is the benefit to any thread in the OT forum? What is the benefit to an OT forum in a hockey site?

Let's have a look at the rundown of the main page, and the "toes it steps on" if you want to look at it in that light.

YLYL/Sexism threads - sexism/misogyn
Pizza - promotion of unhealthy eating styles/fat-ablism
GMG - Is there any -ism that this thread hasn't covered in it's lifetime of petty annoyances?
Transporting a car - mocking poverty (Oh look, I can afford to have a car brought in from across the country...)
Funny/Cool pic - Again, is there an 'ism this thread hasn't hit in it's lifetime? And we find it all funny...
Cop Body Cam - Promotion of bowing down to The Man
ISIS - Not touching this one
Vaccines - scientific ignorance
Large White Event - Mocking poverty/glorifying excess
Bible Belt - Sexism
Police/Riots - Racism/anti-authority among a great many other things
War Machine - Sexism, brutality
Bouncers - brutality
Jihad - mocking a sacred duty of muslims for a fitness club

What is the point to any/all of these? Why do we have an OT forum in the first place. This is a hockey forum. We should just be talking about hockey right?

To answer your question...I feel the benefit to an OT forum and the things we discuss, which range wide and far from hockey is just that...DISCUSSION, which promotes awareness, which leads to change.

Just reading through this thread, I am MORE aware of how the ladies who post here feel. I never would have been without this thread. In the YLYL thread, a lot of the '2/10, would not bang' behaviour is not tolerated. It is TEACHING folks what kind of behaviour is acceptable/expected, instead of just expecting them to divine it.

I have found, as a middle aged white male, that there is a lot of stuff I just don't see, with the world filtered as it is through my experiences. One of the main reasons I frequent the OT forums instead of the FOI ones is that the sheer amount of info I see around here is fantastic, and generally presented in a pretty civil manner. I have learned stuff I would have never known, discovered things I'd never have otherwise. I have thoughts and opinions on things that I never would have before, due to what I've seen here and how it's presented.

So what is the benefit? It's part of a teaching, growing, civil community as I see it. Where you can bring something up, and not get slapped down by the mods for it. Where something can be brought forward to the board in general and discussed.

It gives a chance for discussion and change throughout a broad spectrum of topics, none of which have any relevance or need to be on a hockey forum in the first place, but set about making us better as a whole because they are here, and can be discussed.

To the YLYL thread specifically? I'm wondering how many people have seen it, have seen the reaction to negative commentary, and reconsidered how they think about women. It is a good example of Eastern Girls wish for folks to 'appreciate the picture', as posts like "wouldn't bang, would wreck her, etc" are brought down and not tolerated very quickly. Guys go in and post, and realize that they can't get away with that sort of commentary in that thread. It may make them realize that kind of commentary isn't acceptable in the first place.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by dammage79

I'd never go into a hot male thread if I knew it was something I would not enjoy perusing. So why limit the choice to make one if somebody was so inclined? It's a freedom that someone who chooses to express should be permitted to.

My understanding of the point being raised by some of the female members of our site isn't that they feel forced to view the thread, or that they feel men should be unable to post pictures attractive women and discuss them here on Calgarypuck. They (and others) are taking the view that the some of types of pictures that are being posted in that thread and elsewhere on the site are problematic for a couple of reasons:

1. A number of the pictures are solely focused on, or solely feature specific parts of a woman's body rather than featuring the woman. This dehumanizes the women in the photos, regardless of their culpability in the photos being taken, and also dehumanizes all women.

2. That allowing the thread to continue as it is implicitly suggests that the community as a whole condones and accepts this view. The women sharing their thoughts on this matter have clearly indicated that CP feels less welcoming and inclusive as a result.

3. Finally, that this sexism and gender stereotyping is an issue that is not limited to the YLYL thread and is not something that can easily be avoided by female posters, unless they choose to stop visiting this site.

A further problem relating to this is that we have no idea how many female posters have either stopped posting here or never bothered to begin doing so because of the culture that has been discussed in this thread. I don't think that fingers are pointed at anyone specifically, or that the majority group of male posters is being demonized, but rather, that some of our posters are sharing ideas that would make them feel more welcome.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

Are we now gonna do a cost benefit analysis of all new threads created on Calgarypuck?



Chilly you are now in charge of the analysis for every thread. Time to quit your day job, this could be time intensive. Start with the pizza thread.

Pizza Thread:
Benefit -
- New topping ideas/combinations discovered
- More diverse selections for customers and an increase in business for quality companies
- Conversation is encouraged throughout the community, an essential need for a message board

Cost -
- One might use thread as a poor attempt at de-valuing the idea that a thread should have an identifiable benefit to the community


Phew, nailed it. Next?
Good example though. The weird part is that there is more positive conversation and appreciation about pizza than there is about women.

[Bootsy]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

The existence of the thread itself is seen as harmful by the female posters here, and seems to encourage the societal reg that suggests scrutinising a women by her appearance is A-OK.

flameswin most recently had probably the best post that thread has seen in the time I've been around. It was two beautiful women, dressed normally, and he talked about what it is that makes them awesome (and while he didn't specifically name them, he rightfully assumed more should know them).

If every post was "Check out this girl/guy, here's who they are, here's what makes them 'hot' as a person" instead of the nameless parade of "Look, something with boobs!" then I think you'd have a totally different outlook on the thread. Instead, it's not about hot "women", because a woman is a lot more than just her body, it's just "hot bodies", and it reduces these people down to that. No name, sometimes no face, rarely an explanation of who they are (and often a "I was too distracted to notice!"), and overall not much interest in treating them like full human beings, but just tittie picks to ogle over.

As has been said, that's totally an issue in society too, but that doesn't mean CP has to wait to make that change for the better. Even the comments when GirlySports brought up the volleyball player, a whole lot of "I don't get it" and "Well I guess she's alright."

If it was truly about appreciation, then those comments (even innocent in intent) would cease to exist. Instead it's about judgement and titilation.

First off there you go again portraying the thread as something it isn't, the vast majority of comments in the thread are not scrutinizing but are more of the complimentary variety... Here's a good example of a post by Hemi-Cuda on Salma Hayek: "Her existence is one of the only arguments I could possibly accept as proof that God exists, because it's hard to imagine a random assortment of DNA forming into that level of perfection"
I'm so sure Salma Hayek would be extremely hurt by that kind of talk
I'm not saying there isn't any negative comments (I didn't go through the entire thread and from your take of it being completely scrutinizing obviously you didn't either) but the positive comments far outweigh the scrutinizing ones, and if that ever becomes a problem the moderators can easily handle it.

This isn't a "which woman has the best personality" thread or "who's the smartest woman", it's a fantasy thread of different men sharing their taste of what their dream girl would physically look like and there's nothing wrong with that. Females do this all the time too, (which is also fine) there's a reason Magic Mike was a box office hit and it wasn't from the stellar acting....it's human nature.

You may think it's a change for the better to get rid of the thread but many of us think suppressing free thinking and censorship for no good reason is not a change for the better.

I wanted to address this separately. A lot of times when something is being brought up as an issue that doesn't have an impact on someone, they tend to label it in a way that de-values it. This is not a witch hunt, it has nothing to do with the level of frequency one visits the YLYL thread, and most importantly did not manifest itself because someone had to find something to be outraged about. Not to mention the fact that it isn't a socio-political issue (though that did have a nice ring to it) and is really just a social issue.

Dismissing the harm that the female posters on here feel this thread causes as nothing more than a found opportunity for outrage is really indicative of the whole issue here.

I guess out of curiosity, knowing the harm it does (even if you don't believe it to be true), what's the benefit of keeping it? What benefit does the thread bring to the community on it's own merits that would make any harm caused irrelevant?

This is a witch hunt, if it wasn't the member's against the thread wouldn't have resorted to extreme exaggeration and in some cases flat out lies to plead their case as to why it should be shut down, they would have just pointed out the crudeness that is supposedly there. It was made to seem like it was thread of a guys commenting on the pictures saying " 4/10 would not bang" * high fives ...when clearly that is not the case.

I don't believe this thread has caused harm to anyone, I believe some of , if not all the female members have had to deal with sexism in the real world which sucks and they shouldn't have to and because of those experiences they jumped to conclusions about the YLYL thread.

The cost-benefit of the thread is a very weak argument as it could be cast on pretty much every single thread not in the Fire on Ice forum. There are thousands of threads on CP, it's pretty easy not to click on one that is not to your tastes. ...But if you want to go around analyzing all the threads for censorship a good place to start would be with the threads involving Politics and Religion.

[WhiteTiger]

Here's a quote from DJ NDN (I believe) which I think encapsulates this nicely:

"Confrontation leads to discussion
Discussion leads to understanding
Understanding leads to resolution."

I look at the main folks who frequent YLYL and the mods as constantly doing this in small scale in regards to CP and sexism.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

What is the point to any/all of these? Why do we have an OT forum in the first place. This is a hockey forum. We should just be talking about hockey right?

To answer your question...I feel the benefit to an OT forum and the things we discuss, which range wide and far from hockey is just that...DISCUSSION, which promotes awareness, which leads to change.

To the YLYL thread specifically? I'm wondering how many people have seen it, have seen the reaction to negative commentary, and reconsidered how they think about women. It is a good example of Eastern Girls wish for folks to 'appreciate the picture', as posts like "wouldn't bang, would wreck her, etc" are brought down and not tolerated very quickly. Guys go in and post, and realize that they can't get away with that sort of commentary in that thread. It may make them realize that kind of commentary isn't acceptable in the first place.

Yeah, it wasn't the OT thread I was asking about, nor this thread, it was the YLYL.

But what you said is perfect, because discussion is a HUGE part of the benefit of most threads. A good discussion brings a thread to life. How is that achievable if it's a thread of images with no commentary, or at best, "Wow she's hot." Is your proposed future of it being a firing range for people to post sexist comments and get grilled for it really the greatest thing that thread can achieve?

If conversation/discussion and community are hugely important and valuable things, how does the YLYL thread contribute to either?

[ExiledFlamesFan]

The fact that some posters are offended by photos of beautiful women and appreciation of beautiful women is their problem, not ours. We're not responsible for your insecurities.

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

If conversation/discussion and community are hugely important and valuable things, how does the YLYL thread contribute to either?

No offense man but you take yourself way too seriously. We're not finding the cure for cancer here, we're just discussing our favourite hockey team. This board is generally light and easy going. This isn't academia. Making a profound Calgarypuck post is not gonna win you a Nobel prize.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

The fact that some posters are offended by photos of beautiful women and appreciation of beautiful women is their problem, not ours. We're not responsible for your insecurities.

lol

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by ExiledFlamesFan

The fact that some posters are offended by photos of beautiful women and appreciation of beautiful women is their problem, not ours. We're not responsible for your insecurities.

Wait, so, if I were to say something discriminatory or offensive toward another person and they took offense to it ... the problem would lie with them and not with me?

[ExiledFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

Wait, so, if I were to say something discriminatory or offensive toward another person and they took offense to it ... the problem would lie with them and not with me?

Really? Is that what I said? You're really reaching here son