2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

What I take issue with are statements like "dominant in every facet of the game" and "best in the league" when we're still having discussions about why the defense isn't getting it done in their own end. They're a good pairing, but with Mike Smith playing the way he is you would think a team with such a "dominant" pairing would be a bit better than 22nd overall in goals against, unless you believe that Brodie/Hamonic really is dragging the team down that hard.

Teams with true dominant pairings backed by solid goaltending (Columbus, Nashville, Anaheim, for example) tend to do very well at limiting chances consistently, which I have yet to see from the Flames.

Teams that are good defensively don't do it with a single elite top pairing, they do it through team defense.

Back to the original point though, the underlying numbers show that Dougie/Gio is one of the top pairings in the league. You dispute this, correct? What do you take issue with? Do you believe the numbers are false? Do you not put very much importance on those types of stats?

You don't think they are a top pairing. Do you have evidence to back this up?
If you are using the GA as evidence, I don't think that is very fair. Edmonton, for example, has one of the worst GF, yet I think most would agree McDavid is one of, if not the most elite offensive threats in the game. Their offensive issues stem from other parts of the line up, just as our defensive problems are likely because of other parts of the team (highly unlikely that it would be as a result of one of the league's best d pairings).

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

They're a good pairing, but with Mike Smith playing the way he is you would think a team with such a "dominant" pairing would be a bit better than 22nd overall in goals against, unless you believe that Brodie/Hamonic really is dragging the team down that hard.

Well, not entirely sure on Brodie's end, but Hamonic's "With or Without You" suggests exactly that. Here's a screenshot from Wilson's article, it's not looking good for Hammer. All our best forwards and Brodie are worse off with Hamonic at ES.

[theg69]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I guess my homer goggles need cleaning because I have a hard time buying words like "dominant" and "best in the league" when the Flames are still in the tank for GA/G. And neither player is really lighting the world on fire offensively either.

I say this not to crap on either guy or the team as a whole, but as a suggestion to maybe take a step back because these are the same kinds of statements we love to make fun of Oilers fans for.

Edit: I see the dogpiling is already starting. I'll be on my way then and keep my opinions to myself next time.

Ok, I'll bite.
There are stats to back up the fact that Gio-Hamilton are among the top pairing d-pairs.

Out of D-pairs to play together for > 200 min TOI - that encompasses 40 defensemen pairings (if you were wondering re: sample size):

Gio-Hamilton have the top corsi rating of 58.29%. If you go to counting stats, they have a GF% of 57.14% (not as great - ranked 12th/40 - but a puck or two bounce in for them and they would be closer to the top) - of note, their xGF% (expected goals for percentage) - is 58.54% - which is actually ranked 2nd out of 40 pairings - so meaning the pairings above them in GF% have had some lucky bounces to outperform their xGF%.

Now - lets go to Brodie-Hamonic - corsi - 49.04% - ranking 28th/40, and GF% - 35.29% - ranking 37th/40 - xGF% - 42.66 - also 37th/40. They are kinda awful all around. They are essentially the reason why the Flames are bleeding goals against - most teams have a great top 4 - we have a top 2 right now.


TLDR - Gio-Hamilton is the one of the best (if not the best) d-pairings to control/drive play - and are still generally on the ice for significantly more goals for than against, while Brodie-Hamonic are essentially bringing the team down with letting in significantly more goals against while they are on the ice.

I get that we have to be critical of our players, but that doesn't mean that we can't be appreciative when they have stats that indicate they are performing well. Gio-Hamilton deserve some praise but Brodie needs to wake the F up 5 on 5.

I do understand the sentiment among possibly balancing it out further by splitting Gio and Hamilton -> the risk there is then you end up with 2 mediocre pairings vs 1 dominant/1 awful pairing -> especially since GG is stuck on his handedness thing for the D-pairs. I mean you could try Gio/Hamonic and Brodie/Hamilton but that second pairing would get eaten alive defensively.

As for trades, I think we have made our bed in our top 4. I understand a compelling argument to trade Brodie - but I don't think it makes sense with how badly he is struggling defensively right now (we would be selling low).

Sorry for the long post...

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

What I take issue with are statements like "dominant in every facet of the game" and "best in the league" when we're still having discussions about why the defense isn't getting it done in their own end. They're a good pairing, but with Mike Smith playing the way he is you would think a team with such a "dominant" pairing would be a bit better than 22nd overall in goals against, unless you believe that Brodie/Hamonic really is dragging the team down that hard.

Teams with true dominant pairings backed by solid goaltending (Columbus, Nashville, Anaheim, for example) tend to do very well at limiting chances consistently, which I have yet to see from the Flames.

You sneered at the very idea ("not even close"). That's why people are taking issue.

BTW, you realize that Anaheim has a worse team goal differential, which you oddly cited earlier as the reason a single pair on the Flames isn't an elite pairing (especially since Gio/Hamilton have a positive goal differential as a pair). Nashville's top pairing has a much worse goal differential as a pir than Gio/Hamilton for that matter.

[Da_Chief]

This is exactly why the Coyotes are where they are, going by advanced stats will lead you to believe Gio-Hamilton is one of the best pairings out there but they really are not.

They get hemmed in their zone (excusable since they're facing top lines) but they turnover the puck more then just here and there (especially Hamilton). Gio has played quite well, Hamilton needs to improve quite a bit for them to actually considered one of the best pairing.

They're good but not as good as those numbers make them out to be.

[bax]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

This is exactly why the Coyotes are where they are, going by advanced stats will lead you to believe Gio-Hamilton is one of the best pairings out there but they really are not.

They get hemmed in their zone (excusable since they're facing top lines) but they turnover the puck more then just here and there (especially Hamilton). Gio has played quite well, Hamilton needs to improve quite a bit for them to actually considered one of the best pairing.

They're good but not as good as those numbers make them out to be.

Okay but what is this based on? Is it what you are seeing from watching the games? Do you also watch other top d pairings from around the league?

I’m genuinely curious how you came to that conclusion. Not saying it is right one way or the other.

[Sutter_in_law]

are we trading away our top pairing?

If not then I'm confused where this thread is going...

[DJones]

Every line gets hemmed in at some points.

They just happen to hem the other team in a lot more and consistently win the transition battles.

The biggest effect on corsi for defenders seems to be how quickly can you get the puck out of your zone.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by bax

Okay but what is this based on? Is it what you are seeing from watching the games? Do you also watch other top d pairings from around the league?

I’m genuinely curious how you came to that conclusion. Not saying it is right one way or the other.

Just by watching them.

I'm mostly basing the comparison while watching other top pairings that play against the Flames.

[TheFlamesVan]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Just by watching them.

I'm mostly basing the comparison while watching other top pairings that play against the Flames.

So when our top line is lighting them up?

[868904]

What i've seen from Hamonic is this:

At the beginning of the year, he was turning the puck over a lot because he was trying to move the puck by passing it to forwards; however, because the forwards don't provide puck support (this has been a problem since Hartley), a lot of the passes were being intercepted or the forwards were bobbling it because they weren't in a good position to take the pass.

Since returning from injury, i've seen Hamonic skate the puck out of the zone a lot more as opposed to trying to make a pass to a forward who is not supporting the puck. I think his play has improved of late and I think it has to do with him adjusting to the fact that the forwards on this team don't know how to support their defensemen.

I don't know what Brodie and Hamilton's problems are. For Brodie, maybe he has better peripheral vision out of his left eye which makes him stronger playing the right side. Don't get me started on what I think Hamilton's problem is.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

Just by watching them.

I'm mostly basing the comparison while watching other top pairings that play against the Flames.

Calgary has played the teams you mentioned a total of once each:

Against Anaheim Gio/Hamilton were +2. I don't know who you think the elite pairing is on the Ducks but no one was more than a 0.

Against Nashville, Gio/Hamilton were combined +4. Josi/Ekholm were combined -4.

Against Columbus (the only loss) everyone was even before OT, and then Brodie lost the game.

With all due respect, I think you are watching for Flames mistakes and at the same time being overly impressed by the other team.

[Vinny01]

Onnthe Hamonic front I read on the islanders board on HF that he generally is a second half player.

I am going to try and remain optimistic that we will see a far better second pairing in re second half of the season. If not then I suspect Treliving makes a major move on the blueline next summer and one of the top 4 is sent away in a trade. I am goi g to guess it is either Brodie or Hamilton.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

With all due respect, I think you are watching for Flames mistakes and at the same time being overly impressed by the other team.

There's a level of hyper criticism all over CP right now that is just crazy in my opinion.

It's as if the fan base has grown to expect a bad hockey team, and when we have a good hockey team - they go into full denial and create problems in their mind where problems don't exist.

There is no "perfect" player, and there is certainly no "perfect" team. This is a league built around the idea of parity. Problems exist on all teams, and all players make mistakes.

Some people want to pile on Brodie for having the odd defensive gaffe, as if there's some other 2nd pairing defenceman making sub-5M out there who should be playing in his place.

Some people want to spend assets to acquire a "legit top line RW" to play with Monahan and Gaudreau because...Ferland isn't on pace for 40 goals, just a lowly 37.

Some people don't believe Monahan is a #1 centre...despite the fact he's on pace for 90+ points.

Some people choose to believe Dougie Hamilton is a bad defenceman and that he and Giordano aren't one of the best pairings in the league...when they absolutely are one of the best pairings in the league, and it's pretty much undeniable at this stage.

Some people want to pile on Bennett for not producing based on their own personal expectations of what a 4th overall pick should produce, while ignoring the fact that ever since he got some good linemates, he's been part of an effective 3rd line group of forwards that is doing more good than bad.

This team is growing and developing right in front of us, but so many of us seem to believe we should be playing like a full team of hardened veterans who play a flawless 60 minute game. Going back to Brent Sutter's era, where all he wanted was mistake free hockey for 60 minutes...that's like chasing a unicorn. Mistake free hockey doesn't exist. It doesn't exist for the Penguins, the Hawks, the Oilers (..haha), and it certainly doesn't exist for the Flames.

[Jiri Hrdina]

^I agree with that except for about Sam. He's been really bad the entire season. The fact that he's gone from being utterly awful to simply mediocre doesn't excuse the fact that too many plays die on his stick, he doesn't generate enough high quality chances and when he does - he doesn't finish.

[Kipper_3434]

I said it in the thread about wether or not the flames will have the best defence in the league this year. My answer was a soft no. I went on to explain that Brodie, Hamonic and Stone we're all coming off bad seasons and that combined with Hamonic being new would mean we'd likely be average to start the year and top 10 by the end. Top 5 would be optimistic. I was flamed for being overly negative.

I like being right, but this team has actually been worse on the back end than I expected. Still hoping for too 10 though.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Calgary has played the teams you mentioned a total of once each:

Against Anaheim Gio/Hamilton were +2. I don't know who you think the elite pairing is on the Ducks but no one was more than a 0.

Against Nashville, Gio/Hamilton were combined +4. Josi/Ekholm were combined -4.

Against Columbus (the only loss) everyone was even before OT, and then Brodie lost the game.

With all due respect, I think you are watching for Flames mistakes and at the same time being overly impressed by the other team.

Where did I mention any of those teams?

[SeanCharles]

Our defence will be fine. Gio and Hamilton are doing just fine (Hamilton seems to get better as the season progresses), Stone and Kulak have done well enough and Hamonic is starting to look better now that he's been here awhile. Brodie has been bad, no doubt, but we all know what he is capable of.

When Kulak is dressed I really like our top 6 and even though they've not quite lived up to the hype I think patience is the key. They are too talented of a group to not figure it out IMO.

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Well, not entirely sure on Brodie's end, but Hamonic's "With or Without You" suggests exactly that. Here's a screenshot from Wilson's article, it's not looking good for Hammer. All our best forwards and Brodie are worse off with Hamonic at ES.

Wow that is alarming.
Still I will give him time to adjust to new coaching and teammates before I dislike the player.
Calgary is putting up a respectable number of wins for a team with several issues not quite clicking yet. This team could be scary good when it does.

[sureLoss]

Insider trading:

https://www.tsn.ca/nhl/video/insider...e-sens~1272495

Summary:

There are rumors that Melnyk is considering selling the Senators but sources say that is not the case.
Melnyk not interested in selling but there are numerous wealthy people who would be happy to own the team.

Sabres haven't made a final decision about trading Evander Kane
Sabres have been telling teams that they are willing to retain some of Kane's salary to facilitate a trade
Lebrun thinks it is at least 6-7 weeks before E. Kane trade talks become serious

Penguins were already looking for a backup goalie before Murray was injured because they wanted Jarry to get playing time instead of sitting around on the bench
Lebrun says Pens might look at Hammond or Lack

McKenzie's understanding is that the Pens are willing to trade Ian Cole only if they get a prime asset in return like a quality center.
If they get the right deal they will move him, if not he will probably be back in the lineup at some point.