Hart, McLeod, Dube, Foote, Formenton charged with sexual assault

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by stang

Maybe not the time to make SA jokes

Sorry, it's how I tend to cope with the horrors of the world, otherwise the sheer tragedy of it tends to overwhelm me.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Unless I'm mixing up cases they actually videoed this question. And asked over the phone or something the next day as well.

Remembering the standard of proof in criminal cases, this will end up being messy if it's clear that the acts were committed and it comes down to consent/coerced consent/lack of capacity to consent. These guys could be acquitted on the criminal standard, but at the same time clearly lacking in judgment and behaviour in the eyes of many. Then what does the league, their teams, and the PA do?

I expect that’s exactly what it will come down to. Can the Crown prove that the accused knew the victim was incapable of giving consent. It will be very messy.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by bluejays

It’s not just hockey. It’s all sports. Look to the states for major coverups in football for example. Athletes always get the benefit of any doubt for the silly assertion they play a sport and they’re special. Sports are fun to play and watch. But athlete and celebrity worship is so silly. They’re among the shallowest people around.

Okay. I agree, I'm just talking about this specific moment.

This is Canada. Hockey is our 'Football.'

And 'Athlete Worship' is, at its core dumb. But thats not whats going on here.

This is the perpetuation of a systemic culture that needs to be stopped. Someone needs to put an end to this.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Locke

Okay. I agree, I'm just talking about this specific moment.

This is Canada. Hockey is our 'Football.'

And 'Athlete Worship' is, at its core dumb. But thats not whats going on here.

This is the perpetuation of a systemic culture that needs to be stopped. Someone needs to put an end to this.

Agreed.

I think it is just so hard, though. The instinctive response would be to clean house and replace HC with a governing body with more transparency and accountability. The problem is that the next instinct is to then populate that new organisation with men who have years of experience from which to draw in directing it. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that these men were also enculturated in the same toxic sports environments.

Replacing HC with a new organisation that is not beholden to the old guard will be the greatest challenge. That just sucks.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Vedder

This is all so gross, Hockey Canada was such a self important tire fire of an organization. Still hopeful it’s burnt to the ground and Bob Nicholson faces some more material consequence for the cultural rot he oversaw.

Hockey Canada just seems so bizarre and backwards at this point. The whole Canadian hockey system needs to go. The USA has it right by feeding through the NCAA system. Our current system pulls kids out of school and isolates them. You end up with staff and coaches preying on players, and players preying on women, with little to no oversight.

The concept of teams of high school aged teenagers that aren't affiliated with schools is just weird and obviously leads to all sorts of problems.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by stang

Maybe not the time to make SA jokes

You see it was a joke. By saying something that he clearly didn't mean, and everyone (almost) understands is completely ridiculous is the essence of this type of humor. It does not minimize the topic of the joke, it is simply a different way of expressing your disagreement with the topic in question IE sarcasm. It is why most of the best comedians make horrific jokes about sensitive topics. That is humour. A fundamentally human expression.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by stang

Go to the Perry thread




Maybe not the time to make SA jokes

Suddenly Stang is the biggest Perry defender

Fanboy bias because they wear the same color as you and are good at hitting a puck into a net is part of the problem. Any other job Perry would have been fired and done with the organization.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

Ok, well...we don’t live in a world 100% free of rapists and assault era. Never have, never will. I’m sure you felt really good writing this and others felt good thanking it but blank proselytizing won’t help protect future victims. In fact, the devotion to not talking at all about what women can do to protect themselves will ensure more victims. Don’t let that stop you from feeling good about yourself though.

If I ever have a daughter I’ll tell her getting drunk and going to a hotel room with a stranger is a bad idea. Not much good can come of it and it exposes you to a lot of risk. Does that mean you deserve to be raped? Absolutely not. Does that mean these guys shouldn’t go to jail? No, they should, and it should be a very long and public sentence which is the only effective thing you can do to dissuade this behaviour.

If you wanna hang your hat on “consent courses” and “teaching” to stop this from happening...you’re gonna be waiting a long time. Forever, in fact. The rest of us will operate in reality.

I don't feel good, actually. I feel terrible. I've had SA (not of me) blow up my life in the last six months. This news story has preoccupied my day and I'm not doing well.

And you know what? It wasn't the victim's fault. They were in a romantic relationship with the person who SAed them. What precautions were they supposed to take there? Was it how they were dressed? Maybe too drunk? Shouldn't have gone to that bar?

The mere idea that part of the explanation for what happened here was something the victim did is a part -- not the whole thing, but a part -- of why SA is so rampant.

Sure, you can teach people how to avoid danger. We can walk and chew gum on this. But is that what we should be talking about IN THIS THREAD? TODAY? Why bring this up?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by blankall

The concept of teams of high school aged teenagers that aren't affiliated with schools is just weird and obviously leads to all sorts of problems.

The thing is, high school and university athletics aren't a part of Canadian culture the way they are in the U.S. They exist, but they're not a big draw and they are not particularly well supported. If we wait for Canadian schools to start up top-quality hockey programs, we will be waiting a long, long time.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Agreed.

I think it is just so hard, though. The instinctive response would be to clean house and replace HC with a governing body with more transparency and accountability. The problem is that the next instinct is to then populate that new organisation with men who have years of experience from which to draw in directing it. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that these men were also enculturated in the same toxic sports environments.

Replacing HC with a new organisation that is not beholden to the old guard will be the greatest challenge. That just sucks.

I really DGAF about Hockey Canada if I'm honest.

I think it all starts a lot lower than that.

The thing that repulses me about Hockey Canada is that they were using regular people's money as 'hush money.'

They baked it into their Balance Sheet as a 'Cost of Doing Business.'

These are people. These are Kids!

You're supposed to be helping to teach them to be responsible people. Not covering for their transgressions.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The thing is, high school and university athletics aren't a part of Canadian culture the way they are in the U.S. They exist, but they're not a big draw and they are not particularly well supported. If we wait for Canadian schools to start up top-quality hockey programs, we will be waiting a long, long time.

High school isn't really a pipeline for ncaa or pro sports in the US outside of football though. There are plenty of high level academies, clubs, etc that can develop elite level athletes in baseball, soccer, golf, etc that require some travel, but don't require taking kids out of high school to go play in the CHL. The CHL is an odd concept.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by blankall

Hockey Canada just seems so bizarre and backwards at this point. The whole Canadian hockey system needs to go. The USA has it right by feeding through the NCAA system. Our current system pulls kids out of school and isolates them. You end up with staff and coaches preying on players, and players preying on women, with little to no oversight.

The concept of teams of high school aged teenagers that aren't affiliated with schools is just weird and obviously leads to all sorts of problems.

I'm actually in full agreement on how weird the Canadian system is, and pulling kids out of education system is very weird, and feel our athletic systems should get more intertwined back with education. At the very least, I don't think anything bad can come of it.

In regards to deeper issue here though, do we think the NCAA system makes this any better? I feel like the NCAAs have had their share of stories and incidents like this come out quite a bit as well over the past few years. I think it comes down to the cultural issue and power (empowerment?) we bestow upon athletes and young athletes in society in general. That's a big part of what needs to change at the root of this problem.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Pekkerhead

So if Dube is charged (not saying he will be), will his contract be voided?

I think it should be... not sure if it can but it should. And if it can I would then expect that action to be the subject of a grievance and by the time that's sorted out his contract will have expired and the Flames will just not extend him a qualifying offer (which they really shouldn't do just on account of his play anyways).

[activeStick]

Isn't the below a possibility though?

1. Flames do not know whether or not Dube was involved in the WJC incident or Flames were told by his agent that Dube did nothing criminally wrong.

2. Dube approaches the Flames regarding his mental health, requesting an LOA.

3. Flames grant Dube the LOA and make the announcement.

I don't know how people are coming to the conclusion that the Flames definitely did something nefarious here.

[dino7c]

The radio guys aren't even allowed to speculate on names legally right now

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

In regards to deeper issue here though, do we think the NCAA system makes this any better? I feel like the NCAAs have had their share of stories and incidents like this come out quite a bit as well over the past few years. I think it comes down to the cultural issue and power (empowerment?) we bestow upon athletes and young athletes in society in general. That's a big part of what needs to change at the root of this problem.

This. And not really just exclusive to young athletes but really any young males.

The fact that Hockey Canada and the adults that run Hockey Canada ever thought it was appropriate to sweep this under the rug and fund the settlement is the biggest problem.

Because a group of high profile males that should have been facing the consequences of their decisions, and whom should have been used as a learning example for the next generation of young men growing up was instead given a free pass.

And even to this day you still will have people saying "well she put herself at risk", or the "you can't teach them to not do these things" type of arguments that need to be shot down the second they are brought up...because all it does is take the responsibility off the people that should be getting punished for their actions to start with.

And not just sports either TBH, hear some terrible stuff that happens to young women trying to get into male dominated industries (Police and Fire being two big ones) that never sees the light of day publicly either and just gets swept under the rug by those organizations, with little to no consequences to the people that did it.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by dino7c

The radio guys aren't even allowed to speculate on names legally right now

busy day for broadcaster and team lawyers me thinks

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Parallex

I think it should be... not sure if it can but it should. And if it can I would then expect that action to be the subject of a grievance and by the time that's sorted out his contract will have expired and the Flames will just not extend him a qualifying offer (which they really shouldn't do just on account of his play anyways).

You absolutely could void the contract if he is charged, contracts have been voided for less.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Yeah_Baby

busy day for broadcaster and team lawyers me thinks

Most radio stations can’t afford a lawsuit these days I’d think. Their profits are likely razor thin. Doubt they want any part of being sued.

[Tuco]

It's pretty unsettling that these creeps have been gallivanting around for the past 5 years. Unlikely they face any consequences. Celebs always win.