[PGT] Flames 0 - Wild 3

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Sutter has been effective at modifying his system over time. However, the fundamental Sutter system with big bodies at all positions, heavy forecheck, man-to-man defense, playing along the boards, etc. only works if you have a big team that can play that way if asked to (e.g. Lightning or Jets). The current iteration of the Flames is a averaged-sized team in all aspects, and a very small team compared to the cup-winning Kings teams.

Sutter might still be a good coach, but he's really failed at adapting his system for the team that he has.

If we look at the Flames D, the 2022-23 d corps is full of highly mobile and/or high IQ players in Andersson, Weegar, Hanfin, Tanev, and now Stecher. Yet, why is Sutter asking his "small-ish", mobile defense to play a conservative, man-to-man, and defense-first style? Weegar is a great example of this sub-optimal coaching. He was a two-way force in Florida (7th in Norris voting in 2020-21 and 14th last year), constantly rushing the puck, pinching, and making smart plays all over the ice. Why isn't he doing that now?

It's the same story on offense. Tell me if this is an offense that should be ranked 22 in GF:

• Premier playmaker averaging 92pt per 82 games over the past five seasons
• Selke candidate averaging 74pt per 82 games over the past four seasons
• Two-way forward averaging 21g per 82 games over the past four seasons
• Offensive forward averaging 28g per 82 games over the past four seasons
• Two-way forward with Selke-caliber defense averaging 48p per 82 games for the past eight seasons
• Offensive forward averaging 30g per 82 games over the past three seasons
• Offensive forward averaging 25g and 35a per 82 games for the past decade
• Some talented young-guns with potential in Dube, Ruzicka, and Pelletier

People can blame chemistry or players not being elite enough, but its should be obvious that there is still skill on the Flames. These players didn't suddenly forget how to score overnight after doing it for years in the NHL.

I think it's fair to put most of the blame on the man at the helm who refuses to mix-up the lines, under-utilizes his most offensively skilled players, and won't change-up the system to embrace the more wide-open NHL game of 2022-23

At this point in time with 2-3 more seasons before retirement, how motivated is Sutter to re-learn the game and tweak his style like he did in the past? If the goal is to win now, Sutter needs to go back to the farm and be replaced with someone that embraces the modern game

Great post here. I don't know if Darryl has really tweaked his style much or just forces his style on any type of team he has. Take a look at his history below of goals for rankings. When people say he isn't some black hole for offensive talent and can only cherry pick one season when he had his best goal scoring season. He has had 4 top 10 finishes in a 18 year coaching career and ranked bottom half in the other 14 and damn near right at the bottom. His check for chances isn't a Darryl Sutter thing this was talked about by another offensive black hole Ken Hitchcock all the time.

19/24
19/26
7/26
18/26
21/27
16/28
17/30
4/30
19/30
27/30
29/30
10/30
26/30
18/30
14/30
24/30
19/31
6/32

Darryl Sutter banks on goal against that's his calling card. Listen to him last season he said I would rather win the Jennings than a Jack Adams award.

The struggles of the team and star players who have produced at the top of league shouldn't be surprising with this coach. If anything last season the outliers and what we are seeing this season is what we should expect with him minus the horrid save %.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The idea that Mangiapane hasn't been good is way over cooked.

His on ice stuff is pretty much equal to last season if not a bit better (expected and actual).

His individual shooting percentage is down but with the other metrics it's hard to argue that he's contributing to a productive line.

It's not that he's been bad. It's more that he's been disappointing coming off a 35 goal season. He's being paid to be a 25+ goal scorer and it appears he probably more of a 15-20 goal guy. Also the guy still falls down all over the ice. I don't think he's a bad player but I think he's a bit redundant now with Dube looking like a younger version of the same player that's a better skater.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

So Mang has 13 goals to date vs his 35 last year, and his on ice stuff is pretty much equal

Huberdeau has 40 points so far vs his 115 last year. Does that make his on ice stuff pretty much equal too?

"Does that make"?

Not sure what kind of connection you're trying to make there.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's not that he's been bad. It's more that he's been disappointing coming off a 35 goal season. He's being paid to be a 25+ goal scorer and it appears he probably more of a 15-20 goal guy. Also the guy still falls down all over the ice. I don't think he's a bad player but I think he's a bit redundant now with Dube looking like a younger version of the same player that's a better skater.

You're definitely paid for production, and he hasn't produced.

Not arguing that. Just suggesting this might be an aberration.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You're definitely paid for production, and he hasn't produced.

Not arguing that. Just suggesting this might be an aberration.

I don't think it's an aberration. He's just more of a 20-25 goal guy that had some bad luck earlier this season. He has also been way more diligent in getting into the crease and netfront the last 25 games which is where he's going to do the bulk of his damage imo.

Either way, there are far bigger problems on this team than Mangiapane falling from 35 goals to 20 (or whatever it ends up being). We always knew last year was likely a career season from him.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by boogerz

Sutter has been effective at modifying his system over time. However, the fundamental Sutter system with big bodies at all positions, heavy forecheck, man-to-man defense, playing along the boards, etc. only works if you have a big team that can play that way if asked to (e.g. Lightning or Jets). The current iteration of the Flames is a averaged-sized team in all aspects, and a very small team compared to the cup-winning Kings teams.

Sutter might still be a good coach, but he's really failed at adapting his system for the team that he has.

If we look at the Flames D, the 2022-23 d corps is full of highly mobile and/or high IQ players in Andersson, Weegar, Hanfin, Tanev, and now Stecher. Yet, why is Sutter asking his "small-ish", mobile defense to play a conservative, man-to-man, and defense-first style? Weegar is a great example of this sub-optimal coaching. He was a two-way force in Florida (7th in Norris voting in 2020-21 and 14th last year), constantly rushing the puck, pinching, and making smart plays all over the ice. Why isn't he doing that now?

It's the same story on offense. Tell me if this is an offense that should be ranked 22 in GF:

• Premier playmaker averaging 92pt per 82 games over the past five seasons
• Selke candidate averaging 74pt per 82 games over the past four seasons
• Two-way forward averaging 21g per 82 games over the past four seasons
• Offensive forward averaging 28g per 82 games over the past four seasons
• Two-way forward with Selke-caliber defense averaging 48p per 82 games for the past eight seasons
• Offensive forward averaging 30g per 82 games over the past three seasons
• Offensive forward averaging 25g and 35a per 82 games for the past decade
• Some talented young-guns with potential in Dube, Ruzicka, and Pelletier

People can blame chemistry or players not being elite enough, but its should be obvious that there is still skill on the Flames. These players didn't suddenly forget how to score overnight after doing it for years in the NHL.

I think it's fair to put most of the blame on the man at the helm who refuses to mix-up the lines, under-utilizes his most offensively skilled players, and won't change-up the system to embrace the more wide-open NHL game of 2022-23

At this point in time with 2-3 more seasons before retirement, how motivated is Sutter to re-learn the game and tweak his style like he did in the past? If the goal is to win now, Sutter needs to go back to the farm and be replaced with someone that embraces the modern game

I actually think Darryl’s perfectly fine with smaller players in the line up, but they have to exhibit the types of traits that work for his system. Things like tenacity, active sticks, the ability to close gaps quickly, detail oriented, situational awareness and etc. This was one of the big problems for Matthew Philips and why I suspect his stint was so short with the big club, he just couldn’t close gaps quick enough whereas Pelletier can.

Secondly, is it even fair to say that it’s the system that’s failed to adapt to the team or rather, is it some players who have failed to adapt? I mean, Darryl had a 50 win season last year and the team was in the thick of a playoff race this season. They’re not toiling with the basement level teams this season, they’re competitive with everyone especially the top teams where they’ve proven they can hang with, they’ve just struggled to put away the bad teams this season due primarily to some combination of poor goaltending, lack of finish and/or effort. That’s not really a system problem, seems more like individuals not executing.

Thirdly, I don’t think there’s enough skill on this team at least in my opinion. If there was, why don’t we see a lot of skilled type of plays like one timers, dekes, wrap arounds, end to end rushes, one touch passes, goals from distance and etc? There are skilled individual skilled plays that cannot be coached, it’s instinctual. This lack of skill has ultimately manifested itself into this team struggling in areas like 3 on 3 overtime, the powerplay and odd man rushes.

Lastly, I do put a lot of blame on the man at the helm though, not the 5th coach in the last 9 seasons though, but Brad Treliving and his management group. This baby was their plan, their direction, their vision, their mandate, their players and coaches they personally interviewed and selected to execute this vision. No coach will ever be successful here long term until the roster improves and I’m not talking about quick fixes like trades or expensive UFAs, I’m talking about top tier franchise players who are better than the opposition’s franchise players.