[PGT] Bolts 7 Flames 4. Flames blow a third-period lead and lose for the 6th straight game

[R2theJ]

Originally Posted by colbym72

Who are you taking off the first line? One of the two twenty goal scorers? Or the leading point scorer?

Ferland - without question - he plays invisible man far too often...

[monkeyman]

I'm not sure how anyone can watch this team and come to the conclusion, yeah, GG is a great coach, lets just keep doing what were doing. Instead, lets blame the complete melt downs and inconsistent play on; the entire team, on bad luck, on goaltending, on the assistants, on the GM, on the fourth line, on the first line, on the third line, on the refs... at some point you have to stop and ask yourself, why is this team consistently inconsistent and why are they subject to so much bad luck? Bad luck, bad calls, bad play, inconsistent performance, is all a manifestation of bad preparation, unclear assignments, slow, lazy practice.

So you can watch the game and ask yourself, how do you blame GG for last nights debacle of major proportions, but you have to look deeper and ask yourself why so many professionals, who have been successful on so many levels are suddenly, all making the same stupid, bad, undisciplined plays? It's all about the direction they've been given, the preparation of the team, and the habits they've developed in practice. Which is well documented as being slow and casual, just like what we see in the games. Who's fault is that?

[colbym72]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

I'm not sure how anyone can watch this team and come to the conclusion, yeah, GG is a great coach, lets just keep doing what were doing. Instead, lets blame the complete melt downs and inconsistent play on; the entire team, on bad luck, on goaltending, on the assistants, on the GM, on the fourth line, on the first line, on the third line, on the refs... at some point you have to stop and ask yourself, why is this team consistently inconsistent and why are they subject to so much bad luck? Bad luck, bad calls, bad play, inconsistent performance, is all a manifestation of bad preparation, unclear assignments, slow, lazy practice.

So you can watch the game and ask yourself, how do you blame GG for last nights debacle of major proportions, but you have to look deeper and ask yourself why so many professionals, who have been successful on so many levels are suddenly, all making the same stupid, bad, undisciplined plays? It's all about the direction they've been given, the preparation of the team, and the habits they've developed in practice. Which is well documented as being slow and casual, just like what we see in the games. Who's fault is that?

I think what most of the GG defenders are saying is there are multiple reasons for losses, and its not as simple as just "the coach". He is accountable for how his team plays, but often things happen that are mostly out of control, like the last couple collapses for example.

[cannon7]

The Lightning play the way I wish the Flames would. The most active defense in the league. Tons of bodies in front of the Flames' net, resulting in multiple seeing eye goals that Smith had no chance on. They just keep attacking, they don't get flustered at all.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

I'm not sure how anyone can watch this team and come to the conclusion, yeah, GG is a great coach, lets just keep doing what were doing. Instead, lets blame the complete melt downs and inconsistent play on; the entire team, on bad luck, on goaltending, on the assistants, on the GM, on the fourth line, on the first line, on the third line, on the refs... at some point you have to stop and ask yourself, why is this team consistently inconsistent and why are they subject to so much bad luck? Bad luck, bad calls, bad play, inconsistent performance, is all a manifestation of bad preparation, unclear assignments, slow, lazy practice.

So you can watch the game and ask yourself, how do you blame GG for last nights debacle of major proportions, but you have to look deeper and ask yourself why so many professionals, who have been successful on so many levels are suddenly, all making the same stupid, bad, undisciplined plays? It's all about the direction they've been given, the preparation of the team, and the habits they've developed in practice. Which is well documented as being slow and casual, just like what we see in the games. Who's fault is that?

I'd also ask yourself why those that want Gulutzan gone so bad have this obsessive need to make everyone agree with them?

Teams are prepared to play a certain style within a certain structure.

My opinion is you fire a coach if his system doesn't work, and you can fire a coach if his utilization doesn't work. I personally wouldn't fire a coach with a good system and solid utilization with a team that brainfarts their way to losses.

That's just me though, you can be as upset as you want to be.

They are outplaying teams and they've done so for almost three months. To me that's the aim of the season, get a team with a structure that is sustainable and let the results come. So he gets a check mark for me in the most important area.

Utilization is another thing. I've had issues with Gulutzan on utilization and have been pretty up front about it. He's hand cuffed on some of them (Brouwer), and maybe he's giving too much responsibility to Cameron for the powerplay (not using Hamilton, players on their true sides), but the big one for me was the use of the fourth line to start periods, or after goals, and he's cleaned that up quite a bit.

So if I'm the GM I see element one is going well, element two is coming along, but the players are finding a way to lose despite being put in a situation to win.

I don't fire a coach for that.

I do sit down with Gulutzan and Giordano and ask about leadership and how to get the team some fortitude.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by colbym72

I think what most of the GG defenders are saying is there are multiple reasons for losses, and its not as simple as just "the coach". He is accountable for how his team plays, but often things happen that are mostly out of control, like the last couple collapses for example.

I agree to a point, but the team is so weak mentally under GG. They weren't that way under Hartley, which is the only reason to truly want Bob back - when the third period started, no matter what the score, everything plus the kitchen sink was coming at you.

When they hit adversity, they fold. That's on the coaches.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I agree to a point, but the team is so weak mentally under GG. They weren't that way under Hartley, which is the only reason to truly want Bob back - when the third period started, no matter what the score, everything plus the kitchen sink was coming at you.

When they hit adversity, they fold. That's on the coaches.

That's an apple and an orange.

What mental fortitude was needed for a hockey team with zero expectations at the cusp of a rebuild?

Even the good season was all shock and gravy with comebacks and "hey look they did it again"

Not sure you can make that comparison, and I really have an issue for the last sentence.

A coach has to find spots in a system for every player to succeed. He needs a game plan and a structure. He needs to have the right players on the ice at the right time.

If a player with all that steps on his own junk it's on the junk stomper.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by R2theJ

3.) Powerplay is just atrocious - no creativity - same thing over and over. Switch it up. Get Brouwer off the PP. Move Stone to the point maybe for the bomb - pretty clear that Cameron has no clue and needs to go. The coaching staff is missing way too many important things and clearly is over their heads here...

I thought the PP was great last game. First time in a while I wanted PP because they were dangerous. I thought they deserved a couple more PPs they what they received. I have to watch it again but I thought the boarding call on Johnson was exactly like the non call on Gaudreau. Plus the whole exchange at the TB bench. I think TB got away with one there.

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'd also ask yourself why those that want Gulutzan gone so bad have this obsessive need to make everyone agree with them?

Teams are prepared to play a certain style within a certain structure.

My opinion is you fire a coach if his system doesn't work, and you can fire a coach if his utilization doesn't work. I personally wouldn't fire a coach with a good system and solid utilization with a team that brainfarts their way to losses.

That's just me though, you can be as upset as you want to be.

They are outplaying teams and they've done so for almost three months. To me that's the aim of the season, get a team with a structure that is sustainable and let the results come. So he gets a check mark for me in the most important area.

Utilization is another thing. I've had issues with Gulutzan on utilization and have been pretty up front about it. He's hand cuffed on some of them (Brouwer), and maybe he's giving too much responsibility to Cameron for the powerplay (not using Hamilton, players on their true sides), but the big one for me was the use of the fourth line to start periods, or after goals, and he's cleaned that up quite a bit.

So if I'm the GM I see element one is going well, element two is coming along, but the players are finding a way to lose despite being put in a situation to win.

I don't fire a coach for that.

I do sit down with Gulutzan and Giordano and ask about leadership and how to get the team some fortitude.

I was thinking this exact same thing this morning.

[burn_this_city]

Hopefully Smith shakes off his Brian Elliott performance last night. He seemed rattled early when he turned over the puck and dove back to prevent a goal. Really can’t afford to have his play dip.

[Igottago]

I don't think the rest of the season plays out any differently than it already has. Win some, lose some, hope to be in the mix come playoff time. They won't fall off a cliff but they won't light it up either. I don't see any indication this team will figure out the extra gear required to really be dangerous. They are just an average presence in the league. They can beat you but they won't scare you. If you want it more they'll let you have it.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Hopefully Smith shakes off his Brian Elliott performance last night. He seemed rattled early when he turned over the puck and dove back to prevent a goal. Really can’t afford to have his play dip.

I don't think we have anything to worry about with Smith. He comes prepared to play every night. He is nothing like Brian Elliott, he rarely gives up the same types of goals.

[bubbsy]

Was out at a work meeting at a restaurant, so only got to catch brief glimpses of the game on the TV behind me.

Things looked great when i saw the score go to 3-2, and especially 4-2. When i looked at the score and noted it was 4-3 at the end of the second, i just had this terrible feeling that i knew how this would go. It went worse. I thought this was destined to be another OT/SO loss, but to see the score at 7-4 the next time i checked, i was just shocked.

it's disappointing. Had the flames got the 2 points last game against vegas, i don't think anyone would have cared about this result, especially given that this is the top team in the league. However, we're looking at a team that has lost 6 straight, sit on the outside looking in again. Instead of creating distance, they are basically back to where they were before their win streak. 2 steps forward 2 steps back.

I'm not even upset now. I am now in full agreement that I had far too great expectations for this team. They are what they show me they are. A middle of the pack team that may or may not make it to the playoffs. My expectations are as such, so on any given night, expecting a victory is fool hearted.

The fact that this team is just a mediocre team isn't a big negative thing. The entire league, outside of 3-4 teams at the top, and half a dozen at the bottom, are all basically the same.

The big negative for me is that instead of riding out this mediocre group in a mediocre heavy league, our genius management group completely miscalculated the quality of the roster they have this year. Trading away 1st and 2 round picks for Hamonic is clearly not the 'one additional piece' this group needs to go from mediocre to contender, heck it's not even enough to make them a playoff team.

That's not even a shot at hamonic. The forwards, as a group aren't good enough, the defense as a group aren't good enough, and as a team they aren't good enough to win inspite of getting pretty damn good goaltending this year.

I'm sick of trying to point blame on this player or that, i'm sick of blaming gulutzan or the coaches for their inability to get more out of the group (warranted or not). At the end of the day, this is Treliving's team, he put all the parts together. So I am very interested to hear/see what he thinks about what has transpired and how he intends to handle this going forward.

I would be perfectly fine in cutting our losses and thinking more long term. I love a lot of our players and want to see them help the team to success. That being said, i really hope our management are a bit cut throat and show no real emotional loyalties (ie. take the Patriots model of asset mgmt) and look to make some hard decisions when it comes to the team (coaching staff, backlund, brodie, playing style vs personnel).

Sorry for the long rant.

[Mattman]

Smith isn't a problem at all. Bad game last night and that's forgivable. He's been a bright spot during the win streak and this losing streak.

Stacking up this team on paper against most NHL clubs they should be doing much much better. Easily one of the most deep and rounded out teams the Flames have had since Iggy and Kipper in their prime.

You can blame loss after loss on player after player (Brouwer OTL vs Buf, Frolik L vs Vegas, Smith L vs TBL) but at some point you have to accept these players are being put in situations that are tough for them to succeed.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

The problem with rolling out this theory is the fact we all know that if he had pulled him there would have been a line up of guys that hate Gulutzan hammering him for gutting the psyche of the team by embarrassing the team's MPV.

And I get that.

People that have moved on from this coach get jaded and he can't really win, we've all been there with issues or people in their lives.

But lets stop trying to convince the masses that it's anything else.

It is relatively common for people to let their own personal bias towards public figures cloud their judgement from time to time and this is the only reason I can see for you to ignore the fact that goalies are pulled every night in the NHL from Carey friggen Price to Brian Elliot when coaches feel like the team needs a shake-up or the goalie is just off.

If you don't think this was the case last night, what game were you watching? Trust me. No-one around here would have questioned pulling a goalie that is in full on sieve mode and just having an awful night with the game on the line. The coaches complete lack of response to do anything (again) to help stop the bleeding is pretty telling that he is running out of answers. Better break another stick I guess because this isn't just a team that is suffering from bad luck at this point. They have no confidence and they coaches inability to get the PP rolling is magnifying every negative issue that arises as the team has no wiggle room or margin for error.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I do sit down with Gulutzan and Giordano and ask about leadership and how to get the team some fortitude.

Confidence comes from preparation, fortitude comes from knowing and believing you have a plan, strength comes from everyone being on the same page and rowing in the same direction.
This team seems to be lacking in all those categories. This is a good team and talent alone will guarantee you some level of success, but their ceiling lies in the coach, and I don't think it's any higher than we're seeing in the last year and a half, which is pretty middle of the road.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'd also ask yourself why those that want Gulutzan gone so bad have this obsessive need to make everyone agree with them?

Probably for the same reason the Gulutzan apologists obsessively want everyone to agree with them and see Gulutzan as a good coach. Strange how both sides want the other to see their side of the story?

My opinion is you fire a coach if his system doesn't work, and you can fire a coach if his utilization doesn't work. I personally wouldn't fire a coach with a good system and solid utilization with a team that brainfarts their way to losses.

What determines whether a coach's system is working? Is it not ultimately results? It is not ultimately whether the team is achieving the production you expected them to? Is it not how well the players fit in that system and whether they are being used to their fullest potential? I guess that is where player utilization comes in, but does that not ultimately show in the results generated by the team?

This is not a team that is utilizing its players properly. Coming into the season it was predicted the Flames defense was going to be one of the picks from the NHL litter. Coupled with a solid starter this was supposed to be a rock solid playoff team. How close to reaching any of those expectations is this team? Do we think for a second that our player personnel is being used to its fullest? Are we leveraging the strength of the talent on the team or are they being cast into a system that works against their natural instincts and abilities? I think results indicate pretty strongly that we are not see the results expected from the talent on this team.

They are outplaying teams and they've done so for almost three months. To me that's the aim of the season, get a team with a structure that is sustainable and let the results come. So he gets a check mark for me in the most important area.

Are they? Are they really outplaying teams, or does the fancy stats tell you that they are? What I see is a team that spends a lot of time in the offensive zone and generates a lot of low quality shots and chooses stupid time to take shots. They pass up way too many quality scoring opportunities in favor of making an extra pass resulting in just more cycle or time in the zone battling for possession. Sure, they puck is in the one end of the ice more, but does that really mean they are outplaying the other team? Is it not possible the other team is taking exactly what the Flames system gives them and they are just playing us better on the defensive side of the puck? The Oilers under Eakins followed a similar flawed strategy and it achieved poor results as well. Could it be that other teams recognize what the Flames are going to do, and they allow them to take all these low percentage shots knowing they won't turn into much?

Utilization is another thing. I've had issues with Gulutzan on utilization and have been pretty up front about it. He's hand cuffed on some of them (Brouwer), and maybe he's giving too much responsibility to Cameron for the powerplay (not using Hamilton, players on their true sides), but the big one for me was the use of the fourth line to start periods, or after goals, and he's cleaned that up quite a bit.

Gulutzan's utilization is terrible. You've highlighted a couple of them. He doesn't let any of his defensemen play the game the way they can. They are handcuffed by the system. His reliance on Brouwer and Stajan, two guys that would not have jobs elsewhere in the NHL, is disturbing. His refusal to change things up is just maddening. Same four lines pretty much night-after-night, hoping for something different to result. His refusal to step in and take a more active role in the PP is almost criminal. Its like he has no answers to anything other than to try and grind out a win.

So if I'm the GM I see element one is going well, element two is coming along, but the players are finding a way to lose despite being put in a situation to win.

I don't fire a coach for that.

Element one is no going well. The fancy stats say one thing, but the outcomes tell a completely different story. If your system is to play perfect hockey, you're going to lose. In Gulutzan's system the team may spend most of the game in the offensive zone, generating a lot of nothing, but with the Gulutzan Gap happening in the defensive zone there are too many instances of quality opportunities for the opposition. I don't see a system that is designed for success. Element two continues to be problem. A guy makes a brain fart, you don't leave him out there to immediately make another. You don't go and leave a guy out killing a penalty for a full two minutes, especially after losing two straight draws. Utilization is still a massive failure.

I do sit down with Gulutzan and Giordano and ask about leadership and how to get the team some fortitude.

I would be more concerned about sitting down with Gulutzan and asking him about his decisions of when and how to use personnel. But if you want to sit down with both parties I would hope that you allowed the player to be frank and call out the garbage systems in play. No matter how good this team is 5-on-5, their special teams more often than not lose them games. I don't think that is on the players and their fortitude. That's on the coaches and the systems they put into play.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by R2theJ

Ferland - without question - he plays invisible man far too often...

The same Ferland who sits @ #7 for right wingers in goals, tied with Pasternak and Radulov? You take him off the topline to replace him with a Gallagher who has 2 less goals or Simmonds who has 3 less goals or... you get my point.

Just because Ferland isn’t a sexy household name doesn’t mean almost every team in the league wouldn’t put Ferland on their top line and e would suddenly make them better... ohh... but not Calgary right?!?!

Classic case of grass being greener.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I agree to a point, but the team is so weak mentally under GG. They weren't that way under Hartley, which is the only reason to truly want Bob back - when the third period started, no matter what the score, everything plus the kitchen sink was coming at you.

When they hit adversity, they fold. That's on the coaches.

Sure they were just as mentally weak under Hartley, just at different points in the game, they had to continually make late game heroics happens because they were a slow starting team.

This is the same type of argument that people had when fondly reminiscing about the young guns era. Oh they weren't good teams but they worked hard. Yeah, no their work ethic wasn't all that special.

This teams problems go far beyond coaching and calling time out. And this is what happens to teams with a lot of talent, and this team has a lot of talent and good pieces. There's that mystical element of something is missing here, and I really don't know if it can be fixed by bringing in a sniping right winger and another forward. This is a team that literally swallows its tongue when its having success in a game. This is I believe a team that believes too much in its talent and not enough in having to bear down on the game.

I have this kid that plays running back for me. He's that tiny kid but he's just a unbelievable athlete and he's got a mean streak. He's one of those players that I'm confident in saying at 14 that if he could over come his small size he's got college ball written all over him.

He looks unbelievable in practice, but he's so talented that he makes things look easy in practice. But when things fall apart they fall apart, because he doesn't know yet how to work on doing the things that at times come easy to him. He doesn't know how to work for a catch, he doesn't know how to work when the lanes close.

thats the Flames, the team that because they don't know how to turn it up in the face of adversity, and don't know how to stop worrying when things go in the crapper have become the ultimate example this year of the team that can't put teams away and when the going gets tough they panic and do stupid things.

They're basically a death star with a thermal exhaust port that's 100 feet square and above the main exhaust port with a sign that flashes and says fatal flaw.

And as much as we think a time out, or a line change or a coaching change is going to change that, I don't believe it will.

This comes from inside the locker room, and I love Gio and his I'm doing it you have to do it leadership. But it starts with Gio and it starts with GG and getting a new coach isn't going to change the results. It isn't going to stop the Flames from clanging shots off of the post or into the goalies belly when they're leading by a goal. Its not going to stop Frolik from his play, or having players wiffing on the puck in their end or forcing a pass into the middle.

Those things aren't systems, they aren't something that a coach teaches or writes on the white board before the game.

I guarantee you this, change the coach, change him tomorrow, I doubt the results change all that much.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

Confidence comes from preparation, fortitude comes from knowing and believing you have a plan, strength comes from everyone being on the same page and rowing in the same direction.
This team seems to be lacking in all those categories. This is a good team and talent alone will guarantee you some level of success, but their ceiling lies in the coach, and I don't think it's any higher than we're seeing in the last year and a half, which is pretty middle of the road.

Well put. This is the difference between mediocrity and high-level teams in almost any team sport. I would wager the majority of CP would be in agreement that the Flames have an above average talented roster this year. So why would anyone deny that it's fair to point the finger squarely at the coaching staff at this point? It is their jobs, after all, to get the most out of said roster. As it stands, this year has been a tire fire aside from that 8 game stretch that is now a distant memory.

If the Flames are ever going to get back to a level where they are contending each and every year, they're going to need a coaching staff in place that are willing to push buttons and show emotion more than once or twice a season. The Babcock's and Quenville's of the league are certainly not going bizerk behind the bench every night, but they are geniuses at reading their teams and know when to apply emotion, calm, call a timeout and yank a bloody goalie from the game. They also have the innate ability to adjust line combinations and make them work beyond trying Troy Brouwer with just about every two-some on the roster and expecting different results.