Sam Bennett as a center or winger?

[TheFlamesVan]

....Bennett costing the Flames games? That's in the top 5 most ridiculous Bennett criticisms I've heard.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The fact the bottom 6 is struggling so badly is most definitely due, in part, to Bennett not being able to generate anything remotely close to what you could call offense. A guy who spends tons of time in the box due to idiotic, lazy penalties and struggles to put up even 1 shot per game on average is surely doing more harm than good.

Simply not good enough. The Flames are counting on him to be a producer and leader this year, not a passenger. He's lucky Gulutzan is showing patience beyond what is reasonable at this point and has not stapled him to the press box until he is ready to change his ways.

Why is it either "producer and leader" or "press box"? Bennett the passenger is still more effective than half of our roster. In case you missed it, the entire bottom 6 can't score. Scratching Bennett just means we replace him with another player who also hasn't generated any offense. The only difference is expectations. Hell, this rush is a better chance than anyone outside the top-6 has produced all season.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

He's at more than double his career shooting percentage right now and only generating about 10% more shots. No denying he's a ridiculous shooter, but this is just another unsustainable hot streak. There's one every year. Last year Crosby had 14 in 14 to start the year, and he didn't even score 50 by the end of the year.

I'm sure if you run the numbers on every high end player in the league they average 30% shooting for a few weeks here and there during a season. Crosby still scored 30 goals in the remaining 61 games he played after that run which indicate he most definitely would have been very close to 50 had he not been hurt. Kucherov is certainly capable of bettering that being one of the premiere snipers around.

There is no evidence to suggest Bennett, who is averaging at or below the league average shooting percentage over his last 100 or so games is suddenly going to buck the trend and start scoring at a rate any better than 12 goals a year. At least not until he starts consistently getting pucks on net and starts playing with self control.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

Why is it either "producer and leader" or "press box"? Bennett the passenger is still more effective than half of our roster. In case you missed it, the entire bottom 6 can't score. Scratching Bennett just means we replace him with another player who also hasn't generated any offense. The only difference is expectations. Hell, this rush is a better chance than anyone outside the top-6 has produced all season.

You wouldn't be scratching him for someone who hasn't produced this year. Jagr and/or Versteeg flanking Jankowski is a far better option than Bennett at this point and time. At least they are taking far less stupid penalties and have shown they're capable of elevating their game this year.

I've watched all but one game and this is also one of the only notable offensive plays Bennett has made all year. If he played like that more often than naught he would be a huge asset to the team. Sadly, a guy who has more penalty minutes than shots or points is not a better option than some of the guys the Flames have right now.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TheFlamesVan

....Bennett costing the Flames games? That's in the top 5 most ridiculous Bennett criticisms I've heard.

It's not that ridiculous. He's taken the bad penalties on the team and we've lost a lot of games this season because we've taken too many penalties that we couldn't kill off. Heck, the coach sat him last season because he was taking too many penalties. That essentially is the definition of him hurting the team to the point that the coach didn't want him on the ice for a game. He has to curb those penalties especially if he's going to struggle with all the other aspects of his game.

[TheFlamesVan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

It's not that ridiculous. He's taken the bad penalties on the team and we've lost a lot of games this season because we've taken too many penalties that we couldn't kill off. Heck, the coach sat him last season because he was taking too many penalties. That essentially is the definition of him hurting the team to the point that the coach didn't want him on the ice for a game. He has to curb those penalties especially if he's going to struggle with all the other aspects of his game.

I absolutely agree with you about him taking bad penalties. But the entire bottom 6 needs to step up and pull their weight. Sometimes Bennett looks like the only guy in that group playing with emotion.

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

I'm sure if you run the numbers on every high end player in the league they average 30% shooting for a few weeks here and there during a season. Crosby still scored 30 goals in the remaining 61 games he played after that run which indicate he most definitely would have been very close to 50 had he not been hurt. Kucherov is certainly capable of bettering that being one of the premiere snipers around.

There is no evidence to suggest Bennett, who is averaging at or below the league average shooting percentage over his last 100 or so games is suddenly going to buck the trend and start scoring at a rate any better than 12 goals a year. At least not until he starts consistently getting pucks on net and starts playing with self control.

All I'm saying is taking two weeks of play and extrapolating linearly is lazy and inaccurate. Kucherov can definitely score 50, but even in his hottest start of his career he's at exactly a goal per game. As impressive as these 13 games have been, he'd have to do the same thing 3 more times to break 50 in 50.

Bennett's shooting percentage in the first ~120 games of his career was pretty much league average (8.5% or so). It only dropped off a cliff in his last 50 games or so - immediately after he stopped getting PP minutes last year. There's a much larger sample size of him shooting at league average than not.

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

You wouldn't be scratching him for someone who hasn't produced this year. Jagr and/or Versteeg flanking Jankowski is a far better option than Bennett at this point and time. At least they are taking far less stupid penalties and have shown they're capable of elevating their game this year.

I've watched all but one game and this is also one of the only notable offensive plays Bennett has made all year. If he played like that more often than naught he would be a huge asset to the team. Sadly, a guy who has more penalty minutes than shots or points is not a better option than some of the guys the Flames have right now.

Jagr I agree with, but Versteeg has been hot garbage this year at 5 on 5. He's got the worst shot generation of any Flames forward, and only barely ahead of Bartkowski for worst among skaters, and his goals are only ahead of Stajan and Glass. Bennett is a much better candidate for the 3LW spot beside Jankowski and Jagr.

And for all the fuss about his penalties, his -5 differential is only marginally worse than Backlund's and Hamilton's -4, and he's one of only a handful Flames to have drawn multiple penalties.

[Tinordi]

The bottom line is that expectations for Bennett need to be revised at this point. If he can't show us glimpses of a front line player in his draft+3 year then he isn't one. It's evident in the eye-test that he doesn't have the hockey sense to be top-end point producer. The real question is if Bennett even has second line upside or impact player upside?

Is Bennett an Andrew Ladd fourth overall or a Benoit Pouliot fourth overall?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TheFlamesVan

I absolutely agree with you about him taking bad penalties. But the entire bottom 6 needs to step up and pull their weight. Sometimes Bennett looks like the only guy in that group playing with emotion.

Oh absolutely, the bottom 6 has been absolutely brutal this season. They definitely are part of the reason why we don't have a better record. If someone told me that Gaudreau would be on pace for 100 points, that Mike Smith would have a .930+ sv% and that the 3M line picked up right where they left off, I would've expected us to be 8-4 or 9-3 instead of floundering at .500. We need the bottom 6 to start helping the team and not hurting the team right now because the top 2 lines can't score every game and Mike Smith will likely have a bad outing or two at some point.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Kovaz

All I'm saying is taking two weeks of play and extrapolating linearly is lazy and inaccurate. Kucherov can definitely score 50, but even in his hottest start of his career he's at exactly a goal per game. As impressive as these 13 games have been, he'd have to do the same thing 3 more times to break 50 in 50.

Bennett's shooting percentage in the first ~120 games of his career was pretty much league average (8.5% or so). It only dropped off a cliff in his last 50 games or so - immediately after he stopped getting PP minutes last year. There's a much larger sample size of him shooting at league average than not.



Jagr I agree with, but Versteeg has been hot garbage this year at 5 on 5. He's got the worst shot generation of any Flames forward, and only barely ahead of Bartkowski for worst among skaters, and his goals are only ahead of Stajan and Glass. Bennett is a much better candidate for the 3LW spot beside Jankowski and Jagr.

And for all the fuss about his penalties, his -5 differential is only marginally worse than Backlund's and Hamilton's -4, and he's one of only a handful Flames to have drawn multiple penalties.

It's not two weeks of play at all and insinuating that I am lazily making assumptions is baseless. I have been watching Bennett since he turned pro with the Flames and he's gone from a tantalizing prospect to a guy that doesn't even look like an NHLer on most nights (unless you cherry pick the odd highlight every 12 games). You can somewhat live with the lack of scoring, however, it's the lazy, undisciplined penalties that make all the difference. You rarely see Backlund take penalties that don't need to be taken out of necessity where Bennett puts himself out of position ad nausea and hurts the team.

In the last 100 games both Jagr and Versteeg have proven they can play at a high level and have averaged more than .5 PPG while Bennett has never even approached those totals. I fail to see how he's going to suddenly turn the switch on after all this time unless he changes his approach or begins to learn from a guy like Jagr - you can't keep saying it's all about luck. The Flames cannot afford to miss their window by over investing time into players like this. If he's not going to seize the moment then its time to pass the torch to the next guy and there appears to be a few of those coming down the line.

I honestly hope he does turn it around but I have seen too many players go down this road to realize it's looking highly unlikely now.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

It's not two weeks of play at all and insinuating that I am lazily making assumptions is a joke. I have been watching Bennett since he turned pro with the Flames and he's gone from a tantalizing prospect to a guy that doesn't even look like an NHLer on most nights (unless you cherry pick the odd highlight every 12 games). You can somewhat live with the lack of scoring, however, it's the lazy, undisciplined penalties that make all the difference. You rarely see Backlund take penalties that don't need to be taken out of necessity where Bennett puts himself out of position ad nausea and hurts the team.

In the last 100 games both Jagr and Versteeg have averaged more than .5 PPG while Bennett has never even approached those totals in his career. I fail to see how he's going to suddenly turn the switch on after all this time unless he changes his approach or begins to learn from a guy like Jagr. The Flames cannot afford to miss their window by over investing time into players like this. If he's not going to seize the moment then its time to pass the torch to the next guy and there appears to be a few of those coming down the line.

I honestly hope he does turn it around but I have seen too many players go down this road to realize it's looking highly unlikely now.

Sam Bennett is 21 years old. This is the time you over invest in a player.

He has shown flashes throughout his career already. Just look at his work in the playoffs, he was one of our best in both playoff years.

Patience is key here. He is young and finding his way. If the penalty parade continues I cannot argue against sitting him for a couple of games to really send a message.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Sam Bennett is 21 years old. This is the time you over invest in a player.

He has shown flashes throughout his career already. Just look at his work in the playoffs, he was one of our best in both playoff years.

Patience is key here. He is young and finding his way. If the penalty parade continues I cannot argue against sitting him for a couple of games to really send a message.

Playoffs are the worst place to evaluate a player, this is something that has long been discussed and leads to many terrible contracts if taken with more than a grain of salt. The age factor is a very slippery slope to start down as well, especially where lottery picks that are now expected to make an impact very quickly are concerned. With 171 regular season games already under his belt and little to show for it since his rookie year, the Flames have already been extremely patient in today's NHL. Bennett is the textbook case of a player that should have brewed in the AHL for a year before making the jump and is now paying for it in the long run.

At this point I would say you now must either cut your losses and bench him for a while or go for broke and see if he can get it going with a top line assignment. The time is now to try and salvage something worthy of where he was drafted and turn him into a contributor on a team with serious playoff aspirations this year.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The bottom line is that expectations for Bennett need to be revised at this point. If he can't show us glimpses of a front line player in his draft+3 year then he isn't one. It's evident in the eye-test that he doesn't have the hockey sense to be top-end point producer. The real question is if Bennett even has second line upside or impact player upside?

Is Bennett an Andrew Ladd fourth overall or a Benoit Pouliot fourth overall?

At D+3 in Nail Yakupov's career, pretty much everybody on this board was labeling him a bust.
Not calling Sam a bust or comparing him to Yak, but we absolutely need to take off our rose colored glasses and reevaluate our expectations for him going forward.

0 points in 12GP for a 4OA pick in his D+3 year is closer to bust material than it is to 3rd line material. No two ways about that.

[crapshoot]

Some day Sam Bennett will once again score a point, and it will be glorious.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

At D+3 in Nail Yakupov's career, pretty much everybody on this board was labeling him a bust.
Not calling Sam a bust or comparing him to Yak, but we absolutely need to take off our rose colored glasses and reevaluate our expectations for him going forward.

0 points in 12GP for a 4OA pick in his D+3 year is closer to bust material than it is to 3rd line material. No two ways about that.

True, but Sam's D+1 was a writeoff due to his surgery. He only played 11 hames in the OHL and that one end of season game in Calgary (PPG!). Followed by his good series against the Canucks of course.

My biggest concern with him is that last year he was snake bit, in that he was getting lots of chances but they weren't going in. After he got the monkey off his back the points were coming more consistently. This year I don't see the chances as much, though I suppose he doesn't have the puck on his stick as much being on the wing.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by crapshoot

Some day Sam Bennett will once again score a point, and it will be glorious.

Cause I'm not.

He is looking like anything but a top line player. Every part of his game has issues right now and I dont know how he gets out of it. He should be in Stockton but there is no way he clears waivers so it has to happen in Calgary. I dont understand why they dont give him a couple nights in the press box myself. Let him see things from a different view and relax his mind. This is a real problem right now and looks like it could snowball into a boondoggle if it isnt figured out soon.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Cause I'm not.

He is looking like anything but a top line player. Every part of his game has issues right now and I dont know how he gets out of it. He should be in Stockton but there is no way he clears waivers so it has to happen in Calgary. I dont understand why they dont give him a couple nights in the press box myself. Let him see things from a different view and relax his mind. This is a real problem right now and looks like it could snowball into a boondoggle if it isnt figured out soon.

Either two games in the press box or two games with Monahan or Backlund. You could go either way.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Cause I'm not.

He is looking like anything but a top line player. Every part of his game has issues right now and I dont know how he gets out of it. He should be in Stockton but there is no way he clears waivers so it has to happen in Calgary. I dont understand why they dont give him a couple nights in the press box myself. Let him see things from a different view and relax his mind. This is a real problem right now and looks like it could snowball into a boondoggle if it isnt figured out soon.

Of course he's not looking anything like a top line player. He's not playing on the top line or with top line level talent either. No argument with the fact that he's not ready to drive an NHL line by himself either. He's playing with a rookie center, and a depth/energy forward at the moment.

I think he's looked fine since moving to the wing. That line has generated some good chances almost every game since being put together. I think they'll just get better and better with more time together. Furthermore, i think there will be a replacement for Lazar when Jagr's back, and whether it's jagr or someone else playing in that spot, it will be an upgrade skillwise.

I wasn't happy with how bennett looked while playing C this year. He's look a bit better now on the wing. I really think the flames just need a bit of a breakout game from that 3rd line. If they can finally pot one and get on the score sheet, i really think the points will start to come in bunches for them.

[crapshoot]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Cause I'm not.

He is looking like anything but a top line player. Every part of his game has issues right now and I dont know how he gets out of it. He should be in Stockton but there is no way he clears waivers so it has to happen in Calgary. I dont understand why they dont give him a couple nights in the press box myself. Let him see things from a different view and relax his mind. This is a real problem right now and looks like it could snowball into a boondoggle if it isnt figured out soon.

Yes, yes I am.

[Bonded]

Hopefully he will catch a streak here.
Regression is no good though.