[News] Flames scratch Sven...again

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by J epworth kendal

Why do you think that is true?

Wrong choice of words. Tough love doesn't work on everyone. Lots of very talented people need their hands held at times or be allowed to make mistakes in real life situations to develop. It's too simplistic to assume this is the only way to go about developing a player. Could it be the right way for Sven? Maybe. The proof will be in the pudding. My experience with this team has me anxious, to be honest.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

It's not even about hurting Sven - because you're right, it's not a science. Even if you look at it simply as meritocracy/playing who deserves to play angle, it makes no sense to me.

Jackman and McGrattan have done absolutely nothing to earn their playtime. If you disagree with that, well...fine I guess, we see things differently.

I don't even think Sven has been great or even good at times - but he's done more to help the team, and can do more to help the team than Jackman and McGrattan can/have.

I should be clear, I'm actually in agreement with a lot of what you say, especially the part I bolded above.

I don't think Jackman or McGrattan has done anything. Heck, I agree that even Glencross hasn't done more than Sven this year. I also feel the Flames are a better team with Sven in the line up playing the way he is now.

I guess where we don't agree is on whether that matters. I don't want Sven just to have to outperform Jackman to get his ice time, or even Glencross. I want Sven to be playing at the level the experts (i.e. the coaches and management) feel he's capable of, and that's the only measuring stick that should be used to evaluate him in a re-build year IMO.

I think what has happened is Feaster's use of the word meritocracy is actually getting Hartley in trouble right now. One because he was so passionate about it when he was using it at the times he was that he over pushed it, and two because Flames fans are taking it far too literally now. I think what Feaster was trying to say back then was, if we have scrub vet on a one-way deal that truely gets out performed by a rookie on a 2 way, the team was commited to finding a way to make room for him, and us being in cap hell in previous years wasn't goint to be a reason not to play the player in the right spot.

I don't think he meant that in the re-build years, the Flames would make line up decisions soley based on who the top 12 forwards were each night.

Let's take Sven for example, and let's forget about the 4th line, Sven's not a 4th line player and he can skate circles around those guys, no question. So lets only look at our Top 9 forwards because that is where Sven belongs at the very least:

I actually agree, with everything we've seen this year, Sven is still one of our best 9 forwards. No question. But I don't agree that it means he should be playing every night in a rebuild year unless someone else can push him down to the 10 spot. For example, if Hartley thinks Sven should actually be a top 4 forward on this team, but is playing about 6 or 7th, and he feels Sven would benefit from watching, or maybe even benefit from a kick in the butt, how is Hartley suppossed to send that message or create that opportunity if the only criteria is meritocracy?

If Sven was on a contending team, it be a lot easier for the coach to sit him on the basis of "meritocracy" because a contending team has much better top 9. I think what Hartley is trying to do is ensure that the fact that Sven doesn't really have to be "that good" to earn a spot in our weak ass line up hurt him from reaching his overall potential, which is better for Calgary and Sven long term.

Competition does often bring out the best in folks, and I think Hartley is trying to create competition where the Flames situation doesn't organicaly have it, by being harder on the rookies who we care about long term development with. It's not cause he's focused on winning now or likes vets. If he was focused on winning now, Sven would be playing because he's a better option, I think Hartley knows much better what this teams goals are for this season and is really trying to stick to them by pushing Sven in a year where there is no natural competition for the guy.

[Goodlad]

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

Scratching youth could also be very detrimental to their development. No way to know how it will affect Sven. Lots of 20 year olds need to be coddled. I for one have no faith that our coaching/management team will make the right decision. Hopefully I'm proven very wrong.

Coddled? Like giving them lots of one-on-one time, including video sessions, or long discussions coach to player after practices? Or maybe giving them sheltered minutes during their playing time and favorable matchups/zone starts? Pairing them with other talented and young players? I think they've done a pretty good job of coddling Baertschi already.

[CsInMyBlood]

Haven't won a game without Sven in the lineup, we won't be winning this one tonight either.

The mismanagement of Backlund is also ridiculous.

Too many mixed signals coming from Hartley, different players with different leash lengths.

There is NO doubt that Backlund and Sven have shown more in less icetime and have made less mistakes then so many players that get 15-22 mins a night on this team.

The best part of all this is when they finally do play Backlund in a role where he gets quality minutes and when they do give Sven some good minutes and some PP time, people will act as though the reason behind their success was the continual benching of Sven and making Backlund play 4 minutes a night with scrubs.

In fact it will be because they were finally given an environment where they COULD succeed.

Meritocracy my ass.

[Freeway]

It's also worth noting that the Flames could likely have several first-time NHLers coming in soon in the form of Bill Arnold, Kenny Agostino and possibly even Johnny Gaudreau. They probably will have less time to give to Sven and Monahan to transition them from "young NHLers" to "NHLers," so this may be part of that kind of a resource management approach.

[Drury18]

Originally Posted by joe_mullen

Scratching youth could also be very detrimental to their development. No way to know how it will affect Sven. Lots of 20 year olds need to be coddled. I for one have no faith that our coaching/management team will make the right decision. Hopefully I'm proven very wrong.

So where is Horak, Reinhart, Hanowski, Backlund, Bouma and Brodie's coddling?

They are all young 20's and they seem to be responding okay to what they have been told to do and how to do it. And the coaching staff have made some pretty big requests of them (i.e. Reinhart switch to wing, Hanowski to drop some weight). They don't seem to need "special" rules because if they are scratched or sent down it will hurt them. They are professionals.

Heck, I'll even go so far to say if Baertschi recieved ANY of the same treatment Horak has so far from the Flames (continously being sent up and down with being waiver exempt as the reason), he would be in the fetal position in a corner crying for his mother.

[OzSome]

I was so excited to see how the young guys like Baertschi, Monahan, Backlund, Brodie, Ramo, Berra and others play and develop this season being the first year of the rebuilding. I am kind of dissappointed that both Baertschi and Backlund have been scratched already. I am not sure the coaching staff and management's reasoning for benching those guys. I think saying they can't play 3 sides or whatever is absolutely BS.
I think starting the season well made the coaching staff and management to think they have a great chance to make the playoff or something. Just for the record, twice Hartley benched Baertschi, the team did not respond.. they won the game passionately before the benching then the whole team just wasn't in it. The same thing with Backlund, I thought he was playing well pretty much like a sponge, playing defense, skating and even hitting. The next game he got benched Flames lost. Not sure if it's only a coincidence.

[joe_mullen]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

Coddled? Like giving them lots of one-on-one time, including video sessions, or long discussions coach to player after practices? Or maybe giving them sheltered minutes during their playing time and favorable matchups/zone starts? Pairing them with other talented and young players? I think they've done a pretty good job of coddling Baertschi already.

That's not coddling a player. That's just doing what every other team, sans oilers, does. Some players need a longer leash to achieve their potential. For all we know, they could be stunting his growth. No way to be sure one way or another.

[SuperMatt18]

I think the question that all of us are over looking is:

What has Sven done to show that he deserves to be in the lineup every night so far this season? In his career?

Outside of a couple of stretches (first 5 game call up, last 7 games last year) his play has been pretty uninspiring.

The issue is those good stretches have made the fanbase (myself included) raise him to this level as a savior and we are unable to look at him objectively without bias anymore.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think the question that all of us are over looking is:

What has Sven done to show that he deserves to be in the lineup every night so far this season? In his career?

What has Jackman done in the past 2 years to take the place of another player in the lineup?

[Hockey_Ninja]

I honestly don't know what to say about this.

[Phanuthier]

Is it not possible to play Sven but not coddle him at the same time? Or is coddles=not benching?

The first coach ever to let a prospect play while not coddling him gets a Jack Adams!

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

What has Jackman done in the past 2 years to take the place of another player in the lineup?

Not a whole lot, and considering he has been a healthy scratch 8 times already this year the coaching staff seems to agree.

Tim Jackman entering the lineup for Baertschi doesn't mean they think Jackman is better then Sven. It means they think Sven hasn't performed up to the level they expect from him and that he deserves to sit for a night. Jackman just happens to be the 13th forward that enters the lineup.

Why is Tim Jackman the standard that we have to compare Backlund and Baertschi to? Tim Jackman isn't a good hockey player, and plays a completely different role then those two players. They shouldn't just have to aim to beat out Jackman for a roster spot.

The coaching staff wants those two players to strive to be more then 3rd or 4th liners. If they think that those players sitting, even if it might make the team worse off for a game, will help them in the long run then it is the right decision to make.

I really hope that Sven doesn't have the same sense of entitlement that some posters on CP seem to have for him.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Hockey_Ninja

I honestly don't know what to say about this.

I need an adult. This is all so confusing.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by CsInMyBlood

Haven't won a game without Sven in the lineup, we won't be winning this one tonight either.

The mismanagement of Backlund is also ridiculous.

Too many mixed signals coming from Hartley, different players with different leash lengths.

There is NO doubt that Backlund and Sven have shown more in less icetime and have made less mistakes then so many players that get 15-22 mins a night on this team.

The best part of all this is when they finally do play Backlund in a role where he gets quality minutes and when they do give Sven some good minutes and some PP time, people will act as though the reason behind their success was the continual benching of Sven and making Backlund play 4 minutes a night with scrubs.

In fact it will be because they were finally given an environment where they COULD succeed.

Meritocracy my ass.

You can definately be assured that most will use that card....

[FBI]

So for all the Hartley supporters, why are media people like Roger Millions and Eric Francis echoing the same sentiments as us about confusion with these scratches?

Wouldn't they have a little bit more insight as to what is going on than us?

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by FBI

So for all the Hartley supporters, why are media people like Roger Millions and Eric Francis echoing the same sentiments as us about confusion with these scratches?

Wouldn't they have a little bit more insight as to what is going on than us?

Do you actually think that Millions and Francis get told by the coach what's going on? Also, not to harp on it, but I can see how you'd suggest maybe RM might have some insight, he travels with the team, he's not a total sensationalist.

But exactly what do you think Francis would know? Likely knows less than the average poster on this site about a situation like this.

[Bingo]

I find it a head scratcher too ... believe me.

But then I always ask myself how the other side would have to look in order for it to be as annoying as it seems.

Hartley is scratching Baertschi and underemploying Backlund because he wants to get fired.
Hartley is scratching Baertschi and underemploying Backlund because he dislikes young players.
Hartley is scratching Baertschi and underemploying Backlund because he doesn't like Europeans
Hartley is scratching Baertschi and underemploying Backlund because has been told he has to finish last place or not get extended

all doubtful

The only thing that makes sense to me in light of how Colborne and Monahan are mainstays in the lineup are that they are developing a new core, and trying to rid the franchise of the recent sink of 60 foot players and they feel the risk of alienating young players is worth the pain to develop that foundation in no uncertain terms now.

[Da_Chief]

Is he out for tonights game as well?

[Caged Great]

Getting players to play a complete game will make the Flames play more like a team like Chicago, instead of the team the Flames have been since 06, where they always had more talent on paper than their actual results. If that means that players have to be benched like Sven, or even eventually traded if they don't learn, that is 100% fine by me. We can build a contender, but we need players that are willing to do all that it takes for that to happen.