Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

That's a fact, but only 1/2 the story.

4 years ago he won a majority with 193,000 votes out of the 250,000 people who voted (around 74% of the popular vote).
This time he won a majority with 199,000 votes out of the 385,000 people who votes (around 51% of the popular vote).

So yes, he won a majority, but just barely.

Most people would consider that almost as many people voted against him as for him, and than maybe they could be a little more conciliatory...

Nenshi doesn't have that personality though.

Maybe Nenshi understands the impact of a well financed special interest group supporting a campaign against him. A majority is still a majority, there is no way of proving that those 135k extra votes in this election would have voted for him or didn’t vote for him in the last election. You win an election based on how many people vote for you, to maintain a majority with a >50% increase in voter participation isn’t a bad thing.

[Loyal and True]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

It’s possible to understand the current climate of professional sports and arena deals while also recognizing that the status quo benefits the team owners more than the public and wanting to change that.

I would rather the city fight for the best deal possible and risk the team leaving than to just give them whatever they want. The flames need to realize we are not Edmonton, and more importantly the public needs to understand that the oilers’ arena deal is a completely different situation when you look at the investments the ownership group put into revitalizing their downtown beyond building the arena. To compare the two is like comparing apples to oranges. Edmonton’s situation would only compare to ours if our downtown was the same as it was 20 years ago before the city had already spent billions of tax dollars to revitalize the core. The CSEC are acting as if we will be getting the same return as Edmonton, when they are able to admit to themselves that we won’t and that no one is falling for it, I think you will see negotiations start back up again.

Why do you think owners benefit so much? They don't make much money here. They are better off selling the team and invest more money in other businesses. Is that so hard to understand?

No it isn't. But obviously this is a "fight" and something you don't want to "fall for". CSEC is "bluffing" and some people think we need to "freeze out" the other side.

I get it. This whole discussion is nothing but a negotiation and nothing anybody says makes a difference. Just talk tough and don't budge. Say whatever it takes to get the best deal. No wonder CSEC left the table.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Loyal and True

Why do you think owners benefit so much? They don't make much money here. They are better off selling the team and invest more money in other businesses. Is that so hard to understand?

Why don’t they do that then? If there is no benefit to them, why would they even bother negotiating? Every dollar the taxpayers pay into funding a new arena for the flames to make money with is a dollar the flames didn’t have to pay themselves. Do you believe that having the city spend 100’s of millions of dollars instead of the team itself is not a benefit to the flames?

No it isn't. But obviously this is a "fight" and something you don't want to "fall for". CSEC is "bluffing" and some people think we need to "freeze out" the other side.

I get it. This whole discussion is nothing but a negotiation and nothing anybody says makes a difference. Just talk tough and don't budge. Say whatever it takes to get the best deal. No wonder CSEC left the table.

So you’re frustrated that the city is taking the same approach as the flames?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Jbo

Francis (ugh) weighs in

http://ow.ly/OhDz30h9NkE

At the moment Francis is getting eviscerated on Vancouver radio for basically playing the part of a shill for the Flames org, in a market that the NHL would be loathe to abandon.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Maybe Nenshi understands the impact of a well financed special interest group supporting a campaign against him. A majority is still a majority, there is no way of proving that those 135k extra votes in this election would have voted for him or didn’t vote for him in the last election. You win an election based on how many people vote for you, to maintain a majority with a >50% increase in voter participation isn’t a bad thing.

Of course there is no way to prove who voted for whom, but the point is never "which individual actually did it". Clearly the number of people voting went up 135k, and his vote count only went up 6k - that's 129k to opponents. There is NO way to swing that and have it come up good for him.

I'm not denying the majority, but the fact is he barely held on to it. With how smart he believes he is, he should be able to figure out that he isn't viewed as the golden boy he once was, and not be quite as smug as he has been in the past... maybe understand the whole city doesn't have his back and there are other points of view that have backers as well.

[Loyal and True]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

How much is this arena negotiation impacting your business right now? If it’s not, I think you owe it to your employees to focus on your business so you’re not struggling to pay their salaries. (As you claimed)

Just my 2 cents though

That's the challenge. In business you have to balance the day to day with the long term. There is no magical time 2 months from now where there is nothing to do except chat. You have to make time for things that matter. Then get back to the day to day struggles.

But yes I owe it to my employees to get back to business now. Isn't it great, being "rich"?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

The posturing, the attempt to buy an election, acting as if they are smarter than the majority of Calgarians, etc...

You talking about the Flames or Nenshi because they all fit that statement.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Lord Carnage

Of course there is no way to prove who voted for whom, but that's not necessary. Clearly the number of people voting went up 135k, and his vote count only went up 6k - that's 129k to opponents. There is NO way to swing that and have it come up good for him.

I'm not denying the majority, but the fact is he barely held on to it. With how smart he believes he is, he should be able to figure out that he isn't viewed as the golden boy he once was.

It’s almost as if there was something different going on during this election compared to the last one. It’s as if there was some polarizing issue on the minds of voters, dare I say that there may have even an organized effort to remove Nenshi from office which makes comparing the 2 electrons a moot point. I wonder what the numbers would have looked like had the flames put as much money behind Nenshi instead of Smith. In your opinion would they would have remained the same for the smug one?

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Loyal and True

I agree with you on this part. But...

If they don't, the owners could easily sell the team for over $500MM. Purchaser will also pay relocation fee and NHL owners will divide that up. The team name will change to fit whatever the new owner wants for his city. Harvey the Hound will relocate too. The citizens of Calgary are sad. They don't want to cheer for the Oilers.

At the next NHL BOG meeting in Boca Raton, expansion remains on the table after the relocation. The most attractive market for expansion at that point could very well be... Calgary! If only they had a new building...

After a short few years, a new billionaire and a new mayor propose the fantastic partnership to bring an NHL team back to Calgary. The billionaire will cough up hundreds of millions for the big NHL expansion fee. The city will provide hundreds of millions for a new downtown arena because... well... the old one is 45 years old and needs to be replaced anyway. The billionaire will even throw in $150 million towards the arena. What a great billionaire!

The citizens are overjoyed, and they have a contest to choose a new name and logo. The winning entry is... the Flames! The new mascot is... Scorch!!!

What a great city! What a great mayor!

Years later...The billionaire will continue making millions off his billions, and the new team will probably make enough money (eventually) to justify the whole expansion fee, but regardless the billionaire will be long remembered for restoring civic pride... Thanks Billionaire!

The new mayor has an unfortunate situation related to inappropriate behaviour with a twenty something intern that occurred in a Cowboys Stampede Tent over thirty four years ago. The mayor resigns, but she will always be remembered as the mayor who brought the Flames back to Calgary! Thanks Mayor!

Unfortunately the team has little success on the ice. Ever since Vegas won the cup in its first season, the NHL decided that expansion rules should be much more restrictive. The team manages a pathetic .350 winning percentage. Worse than every team in the league except Edmonton.

This reads like Captain Crunch fan fiction from the Star Wars thread.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Why? Nenshi never wastes an opportunity in front of the microphone to twist the knife in Edwards back. There is a difference between having a political stance and being a smug jerk. People like to pile in Ken King and rightly so but Nenshi is his match as both are egotistical bullies. Quite frankly I'm embarrassed by everyone involved in this situation. No wonder they can't get anything accomplished with these two heading up discussions. Now this stuff is national it's just an embarrassment for the city.

I'm actually pretty honored to be part of a city that is sticking it to Murray Edwards and Ken King right now. These guys were beyond convinced they had the golden key to the city and have found out really quickly we are not they type to be railroaded into some sleazy Edmonton type arena deal.

Make no mistake, every day this drags on, cities around the North American pro sports sphere are benefiting from what we're doing.

[Erick Estrada]

How about the fact that a lot of Calgarians are getting a little tired of Nenshi's act? It's not like things have been roses under his leadership as there's plenty of warts and quite frankly he's extremely lucky that his main opponent in the last election had all the substance of an empty paper bag or we would be speaking of him in the past tense today. If Bill Smith had a smidgen of good ideas in his campaign he likely wins the election by a land slide.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

At the moment Francis is getting eviscerated on Vancouver radio for basically playing the part of a shill for the Flames org, in a market that the NHL would be loathe to abandon.

Former Herald writer Mike Bell let Francis have it on Facebook last night.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Loyal and True

That's the challenge. In business you have to balance the day to day with the long term. There is no magical time 2 months from now where there is nothing to do except chat. You have to make time for things that matter. Then get back to the day to day struggles.

But yes I owe it to my employees to get back to business now. Isn't it great, being "rich"?

I’m curious how you became or remain so rich paying out bonuses while you’re struggling to pay your employees’ salaries. Seems like a fiscally irresponsible approach. But I guess the Econ 101 crowd can debate that.

You still haven’t explained how this arena negotiation is affecting your business.

[Lord Carnage]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

It’s almost as if there was something different going on during this election compared to the last one. It’s as if there was some polarizing issue on the minds of voters, dare I say that there may have even an organized effort to remove Nenshi from office which makes comparing the 2 electrons a moot point. I wonder what the numbers would have looked like had the flames put as much money behind Nenshi instead of Smith. In your opinion would they would have remained the same for the smug one?

Obviously difficult to answer... but when I originally chimed in, there were posters supporting the City position because this was an election issue that Nenshi won with a majority.

Your post kind of emphasizes my point - the Arena was an election issue, and Nenshi support plummeted. Was it the only issue? Of course not (green line, etc). I disagree that there was an organized effort to remove the mayor... rather an organized effort to bring issues (like the arena) to the fore during the election - just my opinion though.

However it happened, over 50% more people voted in a mayoral race than 4 years earlier. I'm sure we can agree that people taking part in an election is a good thing. And of those additional 135k voters, 129k voted away from Nenshi - those are just the numbers.

[Jbo]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

At the moment Francis is getting eviscerated on Vancouver radio for basically playing the part of a shill for the Flames org, in a market that the NHL would be loathe to abandon.

Just to be very clear, I am no fan of Francis. Just thought the article was worth positing for discussion purposes.

[Loyal and True]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Why don’t they do that then? If there is no benefit to them, why would they even bother negotiating? Every dollar the taxpayers pay into funding a new arena for the flames to make money with is a dollar the flames didn’t have to pay themselves. Do you believe that having the city spend 100’s of millions of dollars instead of the team itself is not a benefit to the flames?



So you’re frustrated that the city is taking the same approach as the flames?

They eventually will do that, if they continue to be stonewalled.

They won't build an arena without significant City support. It is a benefit for the city. If the city doesn't see a benefit, then it will never get built.

They tried to show the city how an arena benefits the city, but I don't think the city wants to acknowledge the truth, because this is a "fight".

CSEC has already backed down on West Village and they have shown a willingness to do East Village. But if the City sees no benefit then there is nothing to talk about.

[Flash Walken]

So much definitively wrong information in one post. Pretty impressive.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Again, Calgary seems to feel it's the one city in Canada that is smarter than everyone else..under the "leadership" of the same guy in every instance.

Toronto: Private money
Montreal: Private money
Ottawa: Private money
Vancouver: Private money
Winnipeg: 70% Private, 30% Public

The "one" city, eh?

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

How about the fact that a lot of Calgarians are getting a little tired of Nenshi's act? It's not like things have been roses under his leadership as there's plenty of warts and quite frankly he's extremely lucky that his main opponent in the last election had all the substance of an empty paper bag or we would be speaking of him in the past tense today. If Bill Smith had a smidgen of good ideas in his campaign he likely wins the election by a land slide.

Maybe calgarians who are unhappy should make it a priority to get more involved with the political process and find(or become?)a candidate who would actually be able to provide a better alternative. A lot of calgarians being tired of Nenshi’s “act” won’t get him out of office if the majority of calgarians approve of his “act” and they actually go out and vote for him.

As a side note, if you feel that bill smith had all the substance of an empty paper bag yet voted for him anyways simply because he wasn’t Nenshi are you applauding Albertans who voted in the NDP to protest the PCs since you have the same mentality when it comes to elections? Anybody but candidate X?

[Erick Estrada]

When did I say I voted for Smith? Also how can a mayor be truly popular if half the voters didn't vote for him? Like I said the fact that Smith got nearly 44% of the votes is telling of just how bad a lot of Calgarians wanted Nenshi out.