2018/2019 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

In bold are the seasons where Sigalet coached the goalies below with the Flames. The sample sizes vary widely, of course, and the evidence is far from clear based on these numbers.

I think the main point to be taken from these numbers is that no goalie has had a great season under Sigalet - something approaching a career-best, or even close. No goalie has had even a surprisingly good season numbers-wise. Most goalies seem to regress based on the numbers after a year of Sigalet's coaching - of course, this is highly debatable as well given team defence and other metrics.

It also seems as if most of these goalies get no better after leaving. Up for debate if he broke them, or whether they were never very good anyway or ready for a steep decline.

Sigalet joined the Flames in August of 2014. Before that he was with the Heat, but I'll start there anyway:

Hiller:
2013 (ANA) - .913, 2.36
2014 (CGY) - .911, 2.48
2015 (CGY) - .918, 2.36
2016 (CGY) - .879, 3.51

Ramo:
2014 (CGY) - .911, 2.65
2015 (CGY) - .912, 2.60
2016 (CGY) - .909, 2.63

Ortio:
2014 (CGY) - .891, 2.52
2015 (CGY) - .908, 2.52
2016 (CGY) - .902, 2.76

Elliot:
2015 (STL) - .917, 2.26
2016 (STL) - .930, 2.30
2017 (CGY) - .910, 2.55

Johnson:
2015 (BUF) - .920, 2.36
2016 (CGY) - .910, 2.59

Smith:
2016 (ARI) - .916, 2.64
2017 (ARI) - .914, 2.92
2018 (CGY) - .916, 2.65
2019 (CGY) - .869, 3.91

A cavalcade of fringe starters, career backups and AHL cannon fodder didn't magically get better.

I'm fine axing Sigalet, but let's be real about what he's had to work with. Kiprusoff wasn't Kiprusoff because of David Marcoux. If you gave Sigalet a real #1 to work with, he wouldn't ruin him.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

A cavalcade of fringe starters, career backups and AHL cannon fodder didn't magically get better.

I'm fine axing Sigalet, but let's be real about what he's had to work with. Kiprusoff wasn't Kiprusoff because of David Marcoux. If you gave Sigalet a real #1 to work with, he wouldn't ruin him.

Great comparison, just on a run of the mill search, I found this fansided article that is eerily similar to some of the discussion we’re having here:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/cardiacc...eir-fault/amp/

So, is Marcoux responsible for turning Kipper from a nobody into the best goalie this team has ever seen? Or is he responsible for ruining guys like Eddie Lack and (to an extent) Cam ward? Maybe it’s both, but it’s also likely neither.

It’s likely the case that he looks as good as the players he’s given to work with. For the Flames and Sigalet, he hasn’t been given much to be excited about.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

A cavalcade of fringe starters, career backups and AHL cannon fodder didn't magically get better.

I'm fine axing Sigalet, but let's be real about what he's had to work with. Kiprusoff wasn't Kiprusoff because of David Marcoux. If you gave Sigalet a real #1 to work with, he wouldn't ruin him.

But Kiprusoff wasn't a surefire starter at the time he was acquired either.
In the 4 seasons before the trade he played 87 AHL games, had only played 22 games in '02-'03 (with a poor stat line). As the third-string in SJ at the time, does he not even fit the description of "fringe starter"? (imagine if SJ opted to keep Kipper and send us Toskala?)

I also don't think you can categorize Hiller as a "fringe starter" - six 20+ win seasons debunks that. His stat line didn't fall off a cliff until his last season ('15-'16) with CGY.

If the coach can't help a goalie take the next step up, then what good is he for? Yes, at some (BIG) point the talent of the player is THE factor, but I don't think Tre has to trade for Martin Brodeur in his prime to show that Sigalet is an awesome goalie coach.

Sigalet could be the difference between "Parsons - NHL Starter" and "Parsons - AHL cannon fodder".

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

But Kiprusoff wasn't a surefire starter at the time he was acquired either.
In the 4 seasons before the trade he played 87 AHL games, had only played 22 games in '02-'03 (with a poor stat line). As the third-string in SJ at the time, does he not even fit the description of "fringe starter"? (imagine if SJ opted to keep Kipper and send us Toskala?)

Sigalet could be the difference between "Parsons - NHL Starter" and "Parsons - AHL cannon fodder".

Do you really think so?

I think it's 95% or higher on the player.

Marcoux moved to Carolina and they have had essentially the worst goaltending in the league since he's gotten there.

Far worse than Calgary.

Is Marcoux a genius or a complete idiot?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Do you really think so?

I think it's 95% or higher on the player.

Marcoux moved to Carolina and they have had essentially the worst goaltending in the league since he's gotten there.

Far worse than Calgary.

Is Marcoux a genius or a complete idiot?

Marcoux hasn't been there for a couple years. But fair's fair - he sure didn't seem to help any of the backups or developing guys like Irving.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

But Kiprusoff wasn't a surefire starter at the time he was acquired either.
In the 4 seasons before the trade he played 87 AHL games, had only played 22 games in '02-'03 (with a poor stat line). As the third-string in SJ at the time, does he not even fit the description of "fringe starter"? (imagine if SJ opted to keep Kipper and send us Toskala?)

I also don't think you can categorize Hiller as a "fringe starter" - six 20+ win seasons debunks that. His stat line didn't fall off a cliff until his last season ('15-'16) with CGY.

Sure but time comes for us all and it came for Hiller. Was that the impact of a bad goalie coach or was that just the tipping point for Hiller?

I view it is the latter but impossible to prove either way.

[Bleeding Red]

Great comparison, just on a run of the mill search, I found this fansided article that is eerily similar to some of the discussion we’re having here:

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/cardiacc...eir-fault/amp/

So, is Marcoux responsible for turning Kipper from a nobody into the best goalie this team has ever seen? Or is he responsible for ruining guys like Eddie Lack and (to an extent) Cam ward? Maybe it’s both, but it’s also likely neither.

Fair to say it's likely neither. But, this stood out to me in that article:
"There were times that he and the Canes goaltenders have not seen eye to eye on goaltending techniques."



Is that the case of a goalie tuning out the coach? Not being professional enough to adjust to different coaching styles (something we expect from D-men & Forwards)?



How about this:

"Eddie Lack after some real bad games pointed to Marcoux’s coaching and techniques as the problem."

Clearly Lack wasn't the problem.



What also hasn't been said too often is how much the play in front of the goalie factors in to all this.

It’s likely the case that he looks as good as the players he’s given to work with. For the Flames and Sigalet, he hasn’t been given much to be excited about.

Again, I think this is the musician-blaming-the-instrument.


Sigalet has been awesome, but has had crap to work with OR the goalies have been great-average and Sigalet ruined them. With no next-patrick-roy on the horizion, may be time to try someone different.



(This argument also hinges on what one thinks of GIllies and Parsons. Is Gillies now AHL cannon fodder? Is Parsons the savior that Sigalet gets to work with?)


On another note - ask yourself - is it worth it trade for, then sign Bobrovsky to a $10 mil deal and then let Sigalet have him? FYI - CBJ's goaltending coach - Manny Legace.)

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Do you really think so?
I think it's 95% or higher on the player.

Then why have a goalie coach at all?
Hire the goalie's best friend or brother to keep him company.

[GioforPM]

Thing is - is Manny Legace a teaching coach or a "keep his spirits good" coach a la Jamie McLennan with Kipper?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sure but time comes for us all and it came for Hiller. Was that the impact of a bad goalie coach or was that just the tipping point for Hiller?

I view it is the latter but impossible to prove either way.

Yes, times comes for all. It came for Kipper, same as it did for Hiller, BUT that doesn't mean that Kipper was a legit starter and Hiller wasn't.

Hiller had six 20+ win winning seasons (including one for CGY), played over 400 games with 197 wins. I think that makes him a legit starter. His first season in CGY was not a disaster - 52 GP, 26-19-4, 2.36 GAA, .918 SV% (anyone here interested with having a goalie with a .918 SV%?)


As I said waaayy earlier - goalies are a crapshoot. I just think the Flames need someone else throwing the dice for a bit.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Thing is - is Manny Legace a teaching coach or a "keep his spirits good" coach a la Jamie McLennan with Kipper?

What difference does it make?

As pointed out to me in this thread the goalie coach may be of no consequence at all.

If you felt that all Parsons needs to be a solid NHL starter was his brother shooting on him at practice, would you hire the brother? (Freddie Hamilton WHERE ARE YOU!!)

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

What difference does it make?

As pointed out to me in this thread the goalie coach may be of no consequence at all.

If you felt that all Parsons needs to be a solid NHL starter was his brother shooting on him at practice, would you hire the brother? (Freddie Hamilton WHERE ARE YOU!!)

The difference is between coaching Bobrovsky and a prospect, of course.

It was felt all Kipper needed was a guy to talk to so they hired Noodles. That probably didn't really help the prospects.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Yes, times comes for all. It came for Kipper, same as it did for Hiller, BUT that doesn't mean that Kipper was a legit starter and Hiller wasn't.

Hiller had six 20+ win winning seasons (including one for CGY), played over 400 games with 197 wins. I think that makes him a legit starter. His first season in CGY was not a disaster - 52 GP, 26-19-4, 2.36 GAA, .918 SV% (anyone here interested with having a goalie with a .918 SV%?)


As I said waaayy earlier - goalies are a crapshoot. I just think the Flames need someone else throwing the dice for a bit.

Hiller's historic performance has little relevance
All players, including goalies, reach an age where they no longer perform at a high level.

To me it seems far more likely that - that's exactly what happened with Hiller, not that somehow he was ruined by Sigalet.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Also not sure why we are talking about Sigalet's impact on Parsons. The Heat have their own goalie coach.

[Erick Estrada]

Goaltender coach is like a QB coach. The QB largely works out with the offensive coordinator, offensive line, RB's and receivers and on the side the QB coach works with fundamentals like footwork, throwing motion, drop back and mental aspects. It's pretty well the same job as a goaltender coach. Obviously it's not a job anyone can do and like any position some coaches are simply going to be better than others. Ultimately when QB's don't progress the QB coach and OC typically get fired. The key word is progression. We haven't seen any progression in any Flames goaltenders under Sigalet. At best you have a season like Smith's last season where he was around career average but none of the young goaltenders have improved and most of the other veteran goaltenders have declined. Now you can say junk in, junk out but his job isn't to be a place sitter and just maintain the status quo, it's to help these goaltenders progress and play their best which simply hasn't happened. I cannot point 100% to Sigalet as being the problem but I can pinpoint 100% that he has not been the solution because there's been no progression for any goaltender under his watch.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Hiller's historic performance has little relevance
All players, including goalies, reach an age where they no longer perform at a high level.

To me it seems far more likely that - that's exactly what happened with Hiller, not that somehow he was ruined by Sigalet.

Not saying he was ruined by Sigalet. He also was not Smith-old, 32/33 yrs old in CGY. And yes, the "age where they no longer perform" is different for each individual.

I'm just saying Hiller was not a no-talent "fringe starter".

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Also not sure why we are talking about Sigalet's impact on Parsons. The Heat have their own goalie coach.

The way things are going, Sigalet will likely still be around when Parsons shows up.

I would also like to think that the Heat coaching staff at least communicates with the Flames coaching staff and are all on the same page. Does the junior guy listen to the senior guy, or are they all completely independent and every call up starts fresh with a different program?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

A cavalcade of fringe starters, career backups and AHL cannon fodder didn't magically get better.

I'm fine axing Sigalet, but let's be real about what he's had to work with. Kiprusoff wasn't Kiprusoff because of David Marcoux. If you gave Sigalet a real #1 to work with, he wouldn't ruin him.

Take a closer look at those stats. It isn't just a case of not magically getting better, they all got worse. Every one of them.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Take a closer look at those stats. It isn't just a case of not magically getting better, they all got worse. Every one of them.

Not to nitpick, but no, they didn't all get worse. Hiller had a better year in year 1 under Sigalet and Hartley than he had the year before in Anaheim.

2.36/0.918 in 52 GP vs 2.48/0.911 in 50 GP


Again, I'm fine with replacing Sigalet. The much larger issue is that the goalies themselves are all fundamentally flawed. None went elsewhere and had better years. Brian Elliott was somehow worse in Philly than he was in Calgary.

The goalies have all been terrible. If they had been any good at all, they would have been kept around.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Now you can say junk in, junk out but his job isn't to be a place sitter and just maintain the status quo, it's to help these goaltenders progress and play their best which simply hasn't happened.

We actually can’t say for sure he hasn’t done that. I mean, looking at it, it’s not like every goalie that has left has returned to form or improved. Every goalie that has come through here has gone on to have even worse seasons after or fall out of the league completely.

This could easily be a case when Sigalet is, in fact, getting the absolute best his goaltenders have to give, with the problem being that they just don’t really have much left/much else to give.

If Rittich continues his strong play, it’d be a pretty big indicator of this being true. I think there’s substance to the argument that Sigalet is getting the best out of his goaltenders.