2024 Off-season trade rumours and speculation thread

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Lewis_D

Also your points about Savard, St.Louis, and Brodeur don't really stand as you're just admitting we had bad scouting in those days which proves my point...

That's ridiculous.

NO OTHER TEAM would offer anything of value for Savard or St. Louis when the Flames moved them out. If you want to blame that on bad scouting, then every organization in the entire league has bad scouting – which makes the word ‘bad’ meaningless.

As for Brodeur, yes, Kidd was a higher-rated prospect in his draft year. It was impossible to tell at the time that Brodeur had it in him to work on his skills and become the best goalie in the game, or that Kidd would simply stop developing soon after his draft year and wouldn't even bother to try.

Stuff like this is why redrafts made in hindsight always look wildly different from the actual draft.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Not that I disagree with you but the Flames ownership group was stellar under the guidance of Harley Hotchkiss, he was well respected in the league. The Murray Edwards clown show is polar opposite to Hotchkiss

There isn't that much difference except for PR. The original ownership group was loved in the city, both for bringing the team in and for their other contributions to the community. But they had no idea at all how to hire hockey management people. Cliff Fletcher came with the team from Atlanta; after that they gave the GM's job to Risebrough, Coates, and Button, and the president's job to Bill Hay and then Ron Bremner. Of those five men, the only one who had any business being in an NHL front office was Coates – and he was hired by Fletcher.

The pool of prospective NHL managers is tiny compared to most industries, top candidates rarely become available – and neither Hotchkiss's group of owners nor Edwards' group have any idea how to hire somebody for that job.

[FranksandBean]

I have been catching up on the reading here and was wondering what people thought about these trades along with what would need to be added?

Trade #1; Markstrom for Holtz & 2025 2nd
Trade #2; Holtz, Andersson & Mangiapane for Necas & Orlov
Trade #3; Necas & Pelletier for Mercer & 2025 1st

Calgary;
Mercer
Orlov
2025 1st
2025 2nd

New Jersey;
Markstrom
Necas
Pelletier

Carolina;
Holtz
Andersson
Mangiapane

I know this is not perfect but I wonder how close it is to a starting point for all teams. Carolina clears Orlov's money to sign Skjei who is the better Dman and get a great contract RHD for their 2nd with Skjei also 2 middle six wingers (cap dump for cap dump). New Jersey get the goalie they want (Markstrom) a top 6 winger to replace Mercer &/or Holtz and a gritty bottom 9 winger. Calgary (who I thing receive too much but don't know how to solve that) gets the RHC we need/want a top 4 Dman which we need and draft capital for the rebuild.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by FranksandBean

I have been catching up on the reading here and was wondering what people thought about these trades along with what would need to be added?

Trade #1; Markstrom for Holtz & 2025 2nd
Trade #2; Holtz, Andersson & Mangiapane for Necas & Orlov
Trade #3; Necas & Pelletier for Mercer & 2025 1st

Calgary;
Mercer
Orlov
2025 1st
2025 2nd

New Jersey;
Markstrom
Necas
Pelletier

Carolina;
Holtz
Andersson
Mangiapane

I know this is not perfect but I wonder how close it is to a starting point for all teams. Carolina clears Orlov's money to sign Skjei who is the better Dman and get a great contract RHD for their 2nd with Skjei also 2 middle six wingers (cap dump for cap dump). New Jersey get the goalie they want (Markstrom) a top 6 winger to replace Mercer &/or Holtz and a gritty bottom 9 winger. Calgary (who I thing receive too much but don't know how to solve that) gets the RHC we need/want a top 4 Dman which we need and draft capital for the rebuild.

I could see NJ doing the first deal, but I think they stop there.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by FranksandBean

I have been catching up on the reading here and was wondering what people thought about these trades along with what would need to be added?

Trade #1; Markstrom for Holtz & 2025 2nd
Trade #2; Holtz, Andersson & Mangiapane for Necas & Orlov
Trade #3; Necas & Pelletier for Mercer & 2025 1st

Calgary;
Mercer
Orlov
2025 1st
2025 2nd

New Jersey;
Markstrom
Necas
Pelletier

Carolina;
Holtz
Andersson
Mangiapane

I know this is not perfect but I wonder how close it is to a starting point for all teams. Carolina clears Orlov's money to sign Skjei who is the better Dman and get a great contract RHD for their 2nd with Skjei also 2 middle six wingers (cap dump for cap dump). New Jersey get the goalie they want (Markstrom) a top 6 winger to replace Mercer &/or Holtz and a gritty bottom 9 winger. Calgary (who I thing receive too much but don't know how to solve that) gets the RHC we need/want a top 4 Dman which we need and draft capital for the rebuild.

I would much prefer the Flames focus on adding futures in any trade, much like they have in the first 5 trades that Conroy did.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

There isn't that much difference except for PR. The original ownership group was loved in the city, both for bringing the team in and for their other contributions to the community. But they had no idea at all how to hire hockey management people. Cliff Fletcher came with the team from Atlanta; after that they gave the GM's job to Risebrough, Coates, and Button, and the president's job to Bill Hay and then Ron Bremner. Of those five men, the only one who had any business being in an NHL front office was Coates – and he was hired by Fletcher.

The pool of prospective NHL managers is tiny compared to most industries, top candidates rarely become available – and neither Hotchkiss's group of owners nor Edwards' group have any idea how to hire somebody for that job.

Hotchkiss and Edwards are pretty much the same except for image. Hotchkiss did just as many extortion-like threats to move the team etc. He was just marketed better. And there’s considerable time when they were both there that Edwards was in charge but Hotchkiss was still nominally the head. As for being respected in the league, IIRC Edwards is way up high in the Board of Governors. Like Vice Chair (under Jacobs).

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The Flames will never win anything as long as Edwards owns the team. He's the common denominator over the decades in trades that got shot down, moves that weren't allowed to happen, etc and the architect of what's become one of the most mediocre organizations in the NHL. He's won a lot in the world of business but as an NHL owner he's a loser.

Man I just don't know (honestly).

I've heard so many different stories over the years, many that conflict with each other.

I've heard Edwards is a control freak in oil and gas, so the hints are there.

But then I've heard many times that he was almost absent when it comes to the Flames.

Then there's the normal level of owner involvement that would run across the league (involved in big signings, involved in big trades).

People hate Treliving now, but was it Edwards? Was it Treliving deciding on the Gaudreau contract the summer before he left? Or did Edwards say no? Did Treliving botch the Tkachuk contract not going 8 years? Or did Edwards? Or did the agent insist on the walk to free agency model that was the rage that summer?

Honestly have no clue.

I don't see Treliving as the level of Satan that most seem to here now, but I've often come back to the "going it alone" comment from Conroy which I just can't get behind.

Would be nice to know if things were fixed with a new GM or if the existing owner is still calling the shots.

Either way I don't see things as inept as many do. You build a core, you get a few years, then you do it again. The core they had just couldn't get it done.

[ForeverFlameFan]

No interest trading with the Devils unless they’re willing to unload 10th OA. And I doubt Mercer is available. Unless you’re doing a deal like:

Palat
10th OA
Mercer

For
Mangiapane (50%)
Markstrom
Random prospect/mid pick

Palat is essentially a cap dump, but I think that’s the only way Jersey explores moving Mercer or 10th OA. Palat imo is better than Mangiapane, but the Devils like Mangiapane with a year expiration. Gives them cap room to sign their upcoming ELCers in Hughes and Nemec.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Man I just don't know (honestly).

I've heard so many different stories over the years, many that conflict with each other.

I've heard Edwards is a control freak in oil and gas, so the hints are there.

But then I've heard many times that he was almost absent when it comes to the Flames.

Then there's the normal level of owner involvement that would run across the league (involved in big signings, involved in big trades).

People hate Treliving now, but was it Edwards? Was it Treliving deciding on the Gaudreau contract the summer before he left? Or did Edwards say no? Did Treliving botch the Tkachuk contract not going 8 years? Or did Edwards? Or did the agent insist on the walk to free agency model that was the rage that summer?

Honestly have no clue.

I don't see Treliving as the level of Satan that most seem to here now, but I've often come back to the "going it alone" comment from Conroy which I just can't get behind.

Would be nice to know if things were fixed with a new GM or if the existing owner is still calling the shots.

Either way I don't see things as inept as many do. You build a core, you get a few years, then you do it again. The core they had just couldn't get it done.

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Tkachuk would have signed an 8-year contract assuming the money was right. It was certainly the Tkachuk way starting with Dad. And Brady took the 8-year deal with Ottawa.

When Treliving couldn't fit the dollar amount in for the long term deal (because of Frolik?), Tkachuk took the less term/less money but insisted on the "walk" deal , not necessarily so he could walk, but to increase his leverage.

[Sofa GM]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

No interest trading with the Devils unless they’re willing to unload 10th OA. And I doubt Mercer is available. Unless you’re doing a deal like:

Palat
10th OA
Mercer

For
Mangiapane (50%)
Markstrom
Random prospect/mid pick

Palat is essentially a cap dump, but I think that’s the only way Jersey explores moving Mercer or 10th OA. Palat imo is better than Mangiapane, but the Devils like Mangiapane with a year expiration. Gives them cap room to sign their upcoming ELCers in Hughes and Nemec.

Boy are fans going to be upset with the actual return when Markstrom gets moved.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I thought it was pretty common knowledge that Tkachuk would have signed an 8-year contract assuming the money was right. It was certainly the Tkachuk way starting with Dad. And Brady took the 8-year deal with Ottawa.

When Treliving couldn't fit the dollar amount in for the long term deal (because of Frolik?), Tkachuk took the less term/less money but insisted on the "walk" deal , not necessarily so he could walk, but to increase his leverage.

I think the term "common knowledge" gets walked out a lot when we really mean "didn't someone say once ..." which is far from knowledge.

With the guys signed that summer to those UFA walk deals there was certainly a push for that model across the league.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Man I just don't know (honestly).

I've heard so many different stories over the years, many that conflict with each other.

I've heard Edwards is a control freak in oil and gas, so the hints are there.

But then I've heard many times that he was almost absent when it comes to the Flames.

Then there's the normal level of owner involvement that would run across the league (involved in big signings, involved in big trades).

People hate Treliving now, but was it Edwards? Was it Treliving deciding on the Gaudreau contract the summer before he left? Or did Edwards say no? Did Treliving botch the Tkachuk contract not going 8 years? Or did Edwards? Or did the agent insist on the walk to free agency model that was the rage that summer?

Honestly have no clue.

I don't see Treliving as the level of Satan that most seem to here now, but I've often come back to the "going it alone" comment from Conroy which I just can't get behind.

Would be nice to know if things were fixed with a new GM or if the existing owner is still calling the shots.

Either way I don't see things as inept as many do. You build a core, you get a few years, then you do it again. The core they had just couldn't get it done.

There was the tidbit from Dreger that the Markstrom trade may have been nixed by ownership. Also it was widely speculated that the Sutter hire was an ownership call. Most of us don't really know, but I think there's enough smoke over the years that there seems to me some level of meddling.

I actually don't even care. I'm a fan, I don't need to see the inner workings of the organization. Just get a reasonable plan put together and start executing on it. I'm tired of all the smoke and mirrors of "retools" and "can't use the R word", "get in and anything can happen" and all this crap. Reality is you have to rebuild, you have to somehow acquire elite prospects, so just accept it and do it properly, whether its Edwards or the management staff. Stop pretending the Flames are a playoff team when they aren't, stop acting like they can contend when they can't. All most fans want to see is a reasonable approach towards building a good team.

[Jiri Hrdina]

They just need to come up with their own R-word that is pure bafflegab and means nothing.

I propose: Re-core. We aren't re-building we are "Re-coring".

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Man I just don't know (honestly).

I've heard so many different stories over the years, many that conflict with each other.

I've heard Edwards is a control freak in oil and gas, so the hints are there.

But then I've heard many times that he was almost absent when it comes to the Flames.

Then there's the normal level of owner involvement that would run across the league (involved in big signings, involved in big trades).

People hate Treliving now, but was it Edwards? Was it Treliving deciding on the Gaudreau contract the summer before he left? Or did Edwards say no? Did Treliving botch the Tkachuk contract not going 8 years? Or did Edwards? Or did the agent insist on the walk to free agency model that was the rage that summer?

Honestly have no clue.

I don't see Treliving as the level of Satan that most seem to here now, but I've often come back to the "going it alone" comment from Conroy which I just can't get behind.

Would be nice to know if things were fixed with a new GM or if the existing owner is still calling the shots.

Either way I don't see things as inept as many do. You build a core, you get a few years, then you do it again. The core they had just couldn't get it done.

I only have second-hand accounts from a friend of a former player, but from what I'd heard it definitely didn't sound hands-off from Edwards in his dealings with the Flames management and players. I would be surprised if this has changed recently, but who knows now with Maloney in place.

[Bingo]

Just seems like the sins get pushed to one guy or the other depending on who has the pitchforks aimed at them.

Makes a huge difference in how you see this team if we knew who made some of the bigger decisions in the last 2 years (and I say that without the level of anger most have, sometimes things just don't work out, and many here liked a lot of the moves when they were made).

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

They just need to come up with their own R-word that is pure bafflegab and means nothing.

I propose: Re-core. We aren't re-building we are "Re-coring".

Since every trade has been a rebuild trade I choose to believe they are in rebuild mode. I am fine with a new word though to throw people off, your word works as well as any.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Would be nice to know if things were fixed with a new GM or if the existing owner is still calling the shots.

Multiple credible sources reported that Conroy and the Devils thought they had a deal, but someone upstairs in the Flames organization put the kibosh on it. Exactly who it was, and whether it was over retention or trying to make the playoffs, isn’t clear. But Conroy does not have more independence than Treliving did. Given the hiring of Nonis, he probably has less.

For years, league insiders have commented that the Flames have a lot of cooks in the kitchen. Along with the handicaps of being a small-market Canadian team, it’s just one of those things a Flames GM has to contend with.

GMing this team is managing in hard mode. We should take that into account when assessing the performance of our GMs.

[Macho0978]

Even though this Stanley cup is a nightmare scenario for Flames fans, I'm hoping it helps them finally pick the right direction for this team.

Florida had 4 top 3 picks in a 5 year stretch with 1 bad selection and 3 franchise changing picks

Huberdeau
Barkov
Ekblad

2 are still young and a huge part of this team success and the 3rd was a key piece to acquire their other superstar.

Oilers as we all know have had many 1st OV picks, but Florida is a prime example of a team that didn't get overly lucky in the lottery and has built a Stanley cup contending team with a 5 year stretch at the bottom.

After drafting Ekblad 1st OV, the following season they were over .500 point percent and even though they missed the playoffs 4 out of 5 years after the rebuild was over they were a good young hockey team. 1 year they had .585 point percent and missed the playoffs as the East has been dominant for years now.

The last 5 years, they are 1 of the best teams in the NHL and there is no reason it ends after this year.

There was a stat a couple years ago, only 1 player selected top 3 from 2010 draft on has a cup and it was Seguin when he was 19 in 2011 hardly playing. Now:

Landeskog
MacKinnon
Eichel

These 3 have won and the following could win:

Oiler Cup:
McDavid
Drasaitl
Nuge

Panthers Cup:
Reinhart
Barkov
Ekblad

The 2013-2015 top 3 OV are all over the cup now. Seems like it takes 10 years since you take a player top 3 to get there, but it's looking pretty consistent that you eventually get there.

Oilers have made mistake after mistake since getting McDavid yet they are playing for the cup right now. We need our franchise players, and the next 2 drafts look good for top end superstars.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

They just need to come up with their own R-word that is pure bafflegab and means nothing.

I propose: Re-core. We aren't re-building we are "Re-coring".

Well I can definitely think of an R word that describes how the Flames have been run. But it would get me banned.

[Ashasx]

Seravalli on BB says he wouldn't be surprised if Necas is traded before Saturday, lists the Flames and Canucks as the top destinations.