Shoe Rant

[HPLovecraft]

Man, am I glad I don't work in an office anymore.

[enthused]

Originally Posted by J pold

It's not right or wrong but there is a level of professional edict and standards that need to be upheld and having a clean shave face or a well trimmed bread is one of them.

So, sandwiches with crust are unprofessional?

[burn_this_city]

I find the whole pretentious attire and grooming rules that some offices have to be laughable. Some of the most successful companies allow their employees to wear whatever they want to work. Here at our office we all wear jeans everyday. No one gives a damn if you didnt shave that morning. As long as you are clean and clothed in a resonable fashion no one cares. I guess thats the perks of being the client. At the same time we don't judge the people working for us based on their clothes or grooming. The important thing is they are competent and complete their work. Everything else is just fluffy bs.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by J pold

In most circumstances yes you do, certainly in my office you be considered to look like a slob. It's not right or wrong but there is a level of professional edict and standards that need to be upheld and having a clean shave face or a well trimmed bread is one of them. Think of it this way if you wore your best best suit, tie, shirt, combed your hair, and shaved your face, but wore your best casual sneakers, even if they looked really good on you, you'd still be considered a slob when you showed up at work. Same principal as stubble.

Man, your workplace sounds like fun! God forbid you drop a little mustardo on the ol' shirt at lunch time, sounds as though that is a lynching offence in the offices Jpold.

Seroiusly though, what industry? No way it's oil and gas given what you've said.

[Yeah_Baby]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Man, your workplace sounds like fun! God forbid you drop a little mustardo on the ol' shirt at lunch time, sounds as though that is a lynching offence in the offices Jpold.

Seroiusly though, what industry? No way it's oil and gas given what you've said.

I don't think he has to worry about mustard. Now pizza sauce on the other hand....

[HHW]

I've enjoyed substantial in two careers that probably lie near the extremes in this debate - IT and the military. Here's my 2 cents:

What is considered an appropriate appearance is relative, of course. No need to get into a long analysis of the why of it, suffice to say that dress norms and faux pas change over time. You can look it up, there is plenty of interesting analysis out there. Why do we shine shoes? How did the neck tie come to be a marker of professionalism?

That said, IMO, appearance matters, in that it shows an attention to detail. The norms may be arbitrary, but that is irrelevant. The fact that you put some thought and effort into meeting them (or intentionally flaunting them), says, on the whole, something about your character. Are you able to conform to a rule system when someone (that is not you) deems it necessary?

As a GUI designer, appearance and presentation are highly important in my work. Believe me, there are plenty of arbitrary guidelines for MS software out there (e.g. ribbons); there are also plenty that are functionally justified, or simply based on aesthetic principles. Sometimes the standard presentation is assanine, but it is the standard. Most industries have the same mix, I dare say.

If it is not in someone's manner to apply, modify, or disregard these rules as appropriate, then I would posit that they may lack a certain ability to read nuance. That is, if you consistently show up at work looking like 10 pounds of sh** stuffed into a 5 pound bag, your bosses, co-workers, and subordinates will unfortunately be hesitant about your ability to do your work and do it well. They may even think - (s)he doesn't really give a d***. Unless perhaps your work does not require you to exercise any sort of judgement.

And yes, perhaps in the millenium generation's world view, jobs that require any sort of "playing by the rules" are archaic and will have no place in the new world economy. Until we're there, I'll keep my working shoes looking well-cared for. I'll probably also scuzz about my house in my beat up sandals and shirt with semi-vulgar slogans.

[worth]

Very well put.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by HHW

I've enjoyed substantial in two careers that probably lie near the extremes in this debate - IT and the military. Here's my 2 cents:

What is considered an appropriate appearance is relative, of course. No need to get into a long analysis of the why of it, suffice to say that dress norms and faux pas change over time. You can look it up, there is plenty of interesting analysis out there. Why do we shine shoes? How did the neck tie come to be a marker of professionalism?

That said, IMO, appearance matters, in that it shows an attention to detail. The norms may be arbitrary, but that is irrelevant. The fact that you put some thought and effort into meeting them (or intentionally flaunting them), says, on the whole, something about your character. Are you able to conform to a rule system when someone (that is not you) deems it necessary?

As a GUI designer, appearance and presentation are highly important in my work. Believe me, there are plenty of arbitrary guidelines for MS software out there (e.g. ribbons); there are also plenty that are functionally justified, or simply based on aesthetic principles. Sometimes the standard presentation is assanine, but it is the standard. Most industries have the same mix, I dare say.

If it is not in someone's manner to apply, modify, or disregard these rules as appropriate, then I would posit that they may lack a certain ability to read nuance. That is, if you consistently show up at work looking like 10 pounds of sh** stuffed into a 5 pound bag, your bosses, co-workers, and subordinates will unfortunately be hesitant about your ability to do your work and do it well. They may even think - (s)he doesn't really give a d***. Unless perhaps your work does not require you to exercise any sort of judgement.

And yes, perhaps in the millenium generation's world view, jobs that require any sort of "playing by the rules" are archaic and will have no place in the new world economy. Until we're there, I'll keep my working shoes looking well-cared for. I'll probably also scuzz about my house in my beat up sandals and shirt with semi-vulgar slogans.

This makes no sense.

If you consistently show up at work in casual attire or with some lint on your pants, that means you've done it more than once, probably a number of times, and as a result your boss and co-workers should have a base of your work to look at and derive your abilities from. If you consistently show up at work dressed sloppily but consistently do outstanding work, and your boss and co-workers are still somehow weary of your ability to do your job well because you don't have a crease in your slacks, the work-place, IMO, is bunk. They choose to look past your work and instead focus on the exterior. To me, that shows I'm working for a bunch of incompetents that are focused on flash and fluff.

If you're not your own boss, don't show up at work wearing a barrel. Respect the dress code of the work place, if they have one. That's simple enough, but believing someone's choice of clothing or want of facial hair or not is somehow a deeper reflection of their inner selves is, in this day and age, whether you like it or not, old-fashion, simple, and naive.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

If you're not your own boss, don't show up at work wearing a barrel.

Yes! I get to show up tomorrow in a barrel!

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Yes! I get to show up tomorrow in a barrel!

If you're your own boss, you could even enforce a barrels-only dress code.

[burn_this_city]

I prefer a burlap sack with a frayed extension cord for a belt.

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by J pold

In most circumstances yes you do, certainly in my office you be considered to look like a slob. It's not right or wrong but there is a level of professional edict and standards that need to be upheld and having a clean shave face or a well trimmed bread is one of them. Think of it this way if you wore your best best suit, tie, shirt, combed your hair, and shaved your face, but wore your best casual sneakers, even if they looked really good on you, you'd still be considered a slob when you showed up at work. Same principal as stubble.

Is it because they're afraid of whiskers falling on to the pizzas?

[HHW]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft: "If you consistently show up at work dressed sloppily but consistently do outstanding work, and your boss and co-workers are still somehow weary of your ability to do your job well because you don't have a crease in your slacks, the work-place, IMO, is bunk. They choose to look past your work and instead focus on the exterior. To me, that shows I'm working for a bunch of incompetents that are focused on flash and fluff."

Fair enough, but that assumes that your workplace is static, that these people have knowledge of your outstanding work, and that you will not interact with people you do not see on a regular basis (e.g. clients, the public at large).

Not saying that this is a hard and fast rule, but in my experience, the two tend to correlate. Not so closely that a lack of creases in pants is a predictor of slack work, but more like a consistently wrinkled shirt and dirty shoes shows a potential tendency towards carelessness.

[J pold]

Originally Posted by enthused

So, sandwiches with crust are unprofessional?

I laughed very hard when I read this, unfortunately the Nazi’s that run my office where quick to note my lack of profession. I now have lost my Starbuck privileges.

[Flash Walken]

In the classroom, I wear pants (not jeans), a shirt (not a t-shirt) and shoes (not runners or boots).

In the warehouse I wear jeans (not pants), a t-shirt (not shirt) and steel toed boots (not shoes).

That doesn't mean I wear a $500 suit in the classroom and it also doesn't mean you can see the steel caps in my boots in the warehouse.

Professional is what you take it to mean, but generally it means "doing more than the bare minimum that you would normally do if you had the day off." Either way, you're going to look worse (no matter what you look like) if you are constantly unsure of your appearance.

[J pold]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

Seroiusly though, what industry? No way it's oil and gas given what you've said.

Private Banking/Wealth Management/Pizza Delivery.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by blankall

I would say no you don't look sloppy as long as the stubble is maintained. Maintaining that 5 o'clock shadow look is tougher than clean shaven IMO. You have to trim it and you have to keep the edged clean.

If you're just not shaving, then yes you would look slobby.

Yes this is what I do....although my 5 o'clock shadow is more of a 2 day shadow. But i trim it every 2 or 3 days, I just dont go for clean shaven very often and one reason is I look about 25 with the beard and about 17 without it.

[4X4]

I think people look just as ridiculous when they're over dressed as when they're under dressed. There's just something that I don't trust about someone in a suit trying to sell me something. Unless I'm in a suit store. The kids that work at the rogers store don't need to be suited up.
And WTF's with cabbies in suits?

As for the facial hair, if I've been denied something so far in life because I rarely shave clean, I probably didn't want it anyway. And if anyone loses respect for me over my stubble, I could not care less. Go to bed, you prissy old man. Your daughter's not coming home tonight.

[narbeZ]

At the end of the day 80-90% of you work for or represent something or someone. If you had a bunch of shmucks representing you/your company unshaven and slobby how would you feel? It's just common sense I'm sorry. It's part of being a man. It's too bad your Dad never taught/Set an example for some of you. (Fair assumption?)

Where are all the Albertan's in this thread?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by narbeZ

At the end of the day 80-90% of you work for or represent something or someone. If you had a bunch of shmucks representing you/your company unshaven and slobby how would you feel? It's just common sense I'm sorry. It's part of being a man. It's too bad your Dad never taught/Set an example for some of you. (Fair assumption?)

Where are all the Albertan's in this thread?

I think some people took it a bit far here. I don't think anyone is trying to look like a homeless bum or like they haven't showered for days. Its just looking normal and wearing normal people clothes, thats all.

Also, dress image doesn't matter a lot from what I can tell. At Google and Facebook, its short, t-shirt and sandles and they are the company to work for right now. Most "young" or "trend" companies are about comfort and production, while older companies with an older corporate culture are about suites and shoes and looking good. I don't listen to my dad for this because quite frankly, he worked in an old generation company. I work in a new or young generation company.


Like 4x4 - I just don't trust people who are over-dressed. I just get the impression they are trying to compensate for being under-qualified or illegitimate.