Conservatives To Slash Federal Funding of Political Parties [Update-CPC backs down]

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

And you cannot be so naive as to actually think that Dion as a figurehead Prime Minister is what you were voting for. You voted Liberal, but the Bloq and NDP would be running this country.

First, off no matter how many times you say it, doesn't make it true. I didn't vote for Dion or the Liberals nor do I support them blindly.

Basic stuff. Someone with the vast genius you have should be able to figure this out.

Do you know what cabinet is? The Bloc is shut out of cabinet. Will they yield influence? yes. Considerable influence? Maybe. But to say that the Bloc and NDP would be running the country is just a gross misrepresentation of the situation. NDP will have cabinet positions. Liberals will have more, and will have the chair of cabinet. Your assertion that the NDP and Bloc are running things is just weird.

It was for Dion just two months ago. The same Dion who passionately argued that he had spent his career fighting to keep this country together, only to turn around and kiss the ass of the separatists. You support a hypocrite.

Sure, maybe he's a hypocrite. Wouldn't be the first nor the last politician to be one. Infact, Harper said in the SFT just a week ago that he wanted to end the bad blood between parties and start governing co-operatively, then he tries to end all their party funding a week later. uhhh huh.

Eitherway, it doesn't address my point. Will some Liberal supporters be upset that a coalition with the NDP and BLoc is formed? Sure, but you'd have to prove that the majority of people who voted for these three parties in the election would disapprove of their party forming government instead of being in opposition.

One would have to be brain dead not to realize that the Bloc would wield an enormous amount of power, no matter how you split the hairs.

Quebec already wields an enormous amoutn of power already. Look at the last parliament and the Cons bending over routinely for the province. Would this necessarily change anything? Maybe. Maybe not.

[FanIn80]

At least this finally proves just how power-hungry the Liberals really are. If you can't get elected in two consecutive elections, then just simply stage a coup and take power away by brokering a deal with a separatist party.

(The NDP are pretty much tramps who will sleep with anyone for a little bit of attention, so it doesn't even need to be stated that they would join in.)

I hope to God that the GG does just dissolve parliament and call for another general election. It would be exactly what the Libs/NDP/Bloq deserve.


Btw... This is starting to feel like I'm watching the WWF or something. I'm waiting for the GG to come running to the ring to save the Conservatives, but half-expecting her to get to the ring and suddenly smash Harper in the head with a chair!

[peter12]

As much as Klein was a goof, I wish we had someone with balls as premier right now. I can't believe no one is standing up this authoritarian take-over.

[Ronald Pagan]

Coup D'etat? Wow this has really pissed off alot of people.

I'm just guessing that most people here have no idea how a parliamentary government works.

Defeating a minority government and replacing it with a coalition government is well within the rules of our democratic system.

Coup D'etat. Please....

[peter12]

Do you know what cabinet is? The Bloc is shut out of cabinet. Will they yield influence? yes. Considerable influence? Maybe. But to say that the Bloc and NDP would be running the country is just a gross misrepresentation of the situation. NDP will have cabinet positions. Liberals will have more, and will have the chair of cabinet. Your assertion that the NDP and Bloc are running things is just weird.

With a cabinet that represents only 114 seats, can you make the argument that that cabinet represents a plurality of Canadians? No. The cabinet will be significantly influenced by the Bloc. There is no question of that. I can't believe your attitude towards this, Ronnie. The fabric of this country's democracy is being ripped and torn asunder by two fringe opposition parties and you tacitly support it.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Coup D'etat? Wow this has really pissed off alot of people.

I'm just guessing that most people here have no idea how a parliamentary government works.

Defeating a minority government and replacing it with a coalition government is well within the rules of our democratic system.

Coup D'etat. Please....

Enough. This is a democratic country. Canadians choose our Government, not Cretian and Broadbent.

The fact that you are even remotely supporting this coup is unquestioningly disturbing, regardless of whichever party you voted for.

[CaptainCrunch]

In a coalition government you don't need to have a cabinet spot to massively influence the government, the Bloc will have the ear of Prime Minister Dion and Deputy Prime Minister Layton. Duceppe has the largest hammer of pulling away his votes or abstaining which opens the way for the Conservatives to defeat key motions or even defeat the coalition. Without the Bloc vote, the Liberals and the Bloc has no power in parliament and are effectively neutralized.

I am still curious about the deals that were made in the back room with the bloc that allowed a person that the Bloc loathes (Dion) to actually be in a position to acend to the throne.

[FanIn80]

The crazy thing is Dion probably has no clue this is even going on. People are probably circled around him right now, trying desperately to explain it to him and all he's saying is... "Wait a minute, can we start over? I'm sorry, I just don't understand."

[CaptainCrunch]

Harper should take the next 7 days to go to dissatisfied members of the Liberal party and get them to cross the floor no matter what it takes. He's 9 seats short of a majority, and I'm sure that there are Liberal MP's that aren't thrilled with the prospect of working with the NDP or having Dion as the Prime Minister or having the Bloc act as the shadow government.

[peter12]

"I've talked to Mr. Chrétien. He and I both discussed what would be a good situation here for the people of Canada, for Parliament, and we'll see what happens," Broadbent told CBC News."

This quote is disgusting. Reminds me of something else.

It is the State which educates its citizens in civic virtue, gives them a consciousness of their mission and welds them into unity.
Benito Mussolini

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

The crazy thing is Dion probably has no clue this is even going on. People are probably circled around him right now, trying desperately to explain it to him and all he's saying is... "Wait a minute, can we start over? I'm sorry, I just don't understand."

But, but he has a hearing condition that doesn't let him understand questions in loud or quiet rooms. Maybe they need to play music at a medium level while they brief him.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Harper should take the next 7 days to go to dissatisfied members of the Liberal party and get them to cross the floor no matter what it takes. He's 9 seats short of a majority, and I'm sure that there are Liberal MP's that aren't thrilled with the prospect of working with the NDP or having Dion as the Prime Minister or having the Bloc act as the shadow government.

Hey... maybe...

I keep forgetting that they are only 9 seats short of a majority.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by peter12

This quote is disgusting. Reminds me of something else.

Funny Peter, I was just thinking about that quote.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Ronald Pagan

Coup D'etat? Wow this has really pissed off alot of people.

I'm just guessing that most people here have no idea how a parliamentary government works.

Defeating a minority government and replacing it with a coalition government is well within the rules of our democratic system.

Coup D'etat. Please....

Yup ronny boy...we are all just a bunch of dummies who have no clue about anything. You nailed it.

Yes...this is without question a non-military staged coup. By its very definition.

The sudden overthrow of a government by a usually small group of persons in or previously in positions of authority.

http://www.answers.com/topic/coup-d-tat

So what part of that doesn't apply here?

And answer me this....why are Cretian and Broadbent the ones brokering this farce? Where is Dion? Layton? Why are they not the face of this thing?

Can you possibly imagine if something similar was to occur in the USA? Especially if a Bush was involved? There would likely be an all out civil war. And rightfully so. But because it's the Liberals making this power play, everything is OK.

Take off your red goggles man....this is an absolute corruption of what the election decided. Any other deduction is nothing but left leaning spin....something you are incredibly good at mind you.

[Ronald Pagan]

Here's a contrarian argument to general sentiment around here.

Jeffrey Simpson roasts Harper over his massive tactical blunder. Simpson has no love for the Conservatives but he also hates the Liberals and NDP, I guess you could say he's a political puritan.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...?query=simpson

This week, he created a completely unnecessary crisis that now threatens his government's very survival. And they call Mr. Harper a great strategist and superior tactician?


Thursday's economic statement was an economic lame duck and a political boner. It revealed, among other things, the kind of Conservative Party that all but its core supporters suspected would eventually be outed: a group of ideologues, led by a Prime Minister who discarded his campaign sweater to reveal an economist with a tin heart and a politician who looks everywhere for political advantage.


Instead of trying to grow Conservative support, he appealed only to his party's core. Instead of acting in a statesmanlike fashion at a time of crisis, he opted to play politics, proposing to cancel public subsidies for parties, a move that would disproportionately benefit his.

Instead, the government unsheathed its ideological swords, attacked political opponents, public-sector unions, disregarded overwhelming economic advice in the country (including from deficit hawks, premiers, and conservative-minded economists) and dared the opposition parties to turn the other cheek - a move, to the government's apparent surprise, the other parties were not prepared to do.


The economic statement was wrongly conceived on every front.
It misdiagnosed what the economy needs, and offered a completely bogus explanation.


Said the government: We have already injected $31-billion of stimulus in the economy through tax cuts since 2006. As if tax cuts in 2006 were designed for stimulus in 2009. No one believes that.

The government also gratuitously set off a political firestorm that will damage the Conservative Party.


Taxpayer subsidies for political parties exist everywhere around the world, even in the United States, where Mr. Obama refused them because he was raising so much private money. The subsidies exist, there as here, as a quid pro quo for eliminating corporate and union contributions. As such, they help parties finance themselves, do their work, and therefore contribute to democracy.


But since the Conservatives have mastered soliciting contributions from individuals better than their opponents, they now propose to eliminate the public subsidy that amounts to a tiny sum relative to total government spending. Nothing the Conservatives have done has been so malevolently partisan as this.

Finally, the government created a potential constitutional situation in which it could be defeated and replaced, quite properly under constitutional convention, by a Liberal-NDP coalition.


He argued that if his government were to be defeated, there would have to be an election, which is not consistent with constitutional convention. He was really threatening a possible constitutional crisis that, again, would be of his own making and that he would hope to turn to his partisan advantage.


The miscalculations have been stunning. Mr. Harper's strategy has accomplished already the near-impossible: to bring the Liberals and NDP together.


He had so many other, less partisan options at a time of economic crisis and grave national concern. That he acted in this fashion, at this time, was enormously revealing. And very sad.

From the Toronto Star:

They would then offer their coalition government – and a promise of Bloc support if not actual participation – to Gov. Gen. Michaelle Jean.


Jean would then have to decide whether to give the coalition a chance to govern or dissolve Parliament and send the country into a new election just two months after the last.


Constitutional experts say precedents suggest that Jean won't grant a dissolution.

Many Conservatives had been gleeful about the "poison pill" item in the update: the plan to slash $30 million in taxpayer subsidies for political parties. But as the political fallout takes hold, Harper's move is widely seen as a terrible political miscalculation.


A Conservative government source said yesterday the idea was Harper's.
Sources said "most" of the Conservative caucus is perplexed why the government moved to put such controversial measures in now. "It makes no sense," said one.
"To date, Harper has been a master at dividing and conquering his opponents," said Conservative author Bob Plamondon.


"But by moving to end the subsidy to all political parties, he has given the three opposition parties unity and purpose. It is a rare strategic blunder for Harper and a miscalculation not seen since (former PC prime minister Joe) Clark toppled himself in 1979."


Conservative insiders across the country were flabbergasted.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't think that the opposition is allowed to meet with the GG to present any kind of ideas of leadership.

If I recall the only person that talks government or policy with the GG is the PM. She merely receives the non-confidence motion, she doesn't act as a arbitrator.

[peter12]

Simpson may be correct that this is a political blunder. I'm not sure it was. I think it was a calculate move to expose the greed of the other parties. I don't think even Harper could have guessed that Broadbent and Chretien would get their dirty little claws into this.

What the opposition is doing is simply unforgivable from my perspective as a Canadian voter.

[Ronald Pagan]

The sudden overthrow of a government by a usually small group of persons in or previously in positions of authority.

So what part of that doesn't apply here?

Are you serious? Where to begin...

The fact that the 'small group of people' represent over half of the voters in the last election? This small group of people has a democratic mandate? This small group of people is operating exactly within the rules of a parliamentary system? This group is saying that the Government has lost the confidence of parliament. The fact that this is LEGAL! Jeez louise.

Can you possibly imagine if something similar was to occur in the USA? Especially if a Bush was involved? There would likely be an all out civil war. And rightfully so. But because it's the Liberals making this power play, everything is OK.

No I can't imagine it. You know why?? Because they aren't a parliamentary democracy!! Because it wouldn't be legal! Because the executive doesn't need the confidence of congress. Gawd. It's like saying could you imagine if the Canadian Federal Government took all the resource revenue from the provinces like it the American government does to the States? No I can't imagine because they are different frickin systems!!!!!

Take off your red goggles man....this is an absolute corruption of what the election decided.

The election decided a MINORITY GOVERNMENT. This is completely consitutional! Get that through your collective heads!

[Ronald Pagan]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't think that the opposition is allowed to meet with the GG to present any kind of ideas of leadership.

If I recall the only person that talks government or policy with the GG is the PM. She merely receives the non-confidence motion, she doesn't act as a arbitrator.

If the Government loses confidence of Parliament then the GG is required to inquire as to whether there are any other viable alternatives to government. In that case the opposition is well within their right to talk to the GG.

[Ronald Pagan]

Simpson may be correct that this is a political blunder. I'm not sure it was. I think it was a calculate move to expose the greed of the other parties. I don't think even Harper could have guessed that Broadbent and Chretien would get their dirty little claws into this.

History will tell. Maybe the Conservatives come out of this stronger but it's highly unlikely.

As of right now, this is a major tactical error on part of the Conservatives and Harper in particular. I should give some kudos to Nehkara. He spotted it right away in the opening post.