iPhone on Rogers - General iPhone on Rogers / Fido discussions

[ah123]

Originally Posted by llama64

The Blackberry OS is ok, but I need something that talks Mac.

My BB syncs nicely with Leopard using PocketMac for BlackBerry -- it is freely available on RIM's website

http://na.blackberry.com/eng/services/desktop/mac.jsp

I have not tried to sync email (no data plan, no email ), but the rest works like a charm...

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by Mccree

Quick question

How much does 1MB give you? How many e-mails/HTML websites etc...

When I load forum.calgarypuck.com on my Treo 700 it takes about 280KB

[Shawnski]

...

[koop]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

but you do have to look at some other factors here people.

Sure, but when I was in the Rogers store I was told that their 300MB 30 dollar plan was a great deal, because it had previously been something like 30 dollars for 4MB. IMO when you can have that big of a price drop overnight it shows there is a problem.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Sure can. Doesn't mean you won't still be paying a bill though, right?

Which I addressed with this:

"The fact that Rogers has their total cost about right (found by doubling the UK plan, or adding another 1/3 onto the US plan) means very little. Presenting it in the chart above just further illustrates the lack of features and the length of time that you're forced to endure it."

Originally Posted by Shawnski

One, since the "Free Phone" of 1995 happened, no one seems to understand the actual cost of the hardware (and subsequent replacements of said hardware from the point of acquisition forward) in the pricing (and term) of rate plans. Hey, if you want an unlocked phone, fine. Cost will be about $700-800. Rate plans won't change much, but you are free to cancel any time.

I was pleasantly surprised when Apple released its pricing. I was expecting a $400-500-600 phone on a 3-year contract, just like the Treo650 was when I bought it 3-years ago. Instead, they lowered it so they could get it into more people's hands - until Rogers decided not to follow suit.

If you're going to make it 'affordable', it's gotta be consistent across the board.

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Two, Canada is not even close to the density of the UK or US. Comparing the costs to run companies in these countries is foolish. All of UK could fit into what, AB's cellular footprint alone? With how many times the users?

And yet the same number of cell towers isn't going to cover that number of people. They are going to have to have 2x/3x/10x/etc the number of towers in the space of Alberta, which if you really look at it is really low right now (only covering the major areas). This adds additional costs that you aren't factoring in either.

Every country has their own reality... but when you see that Bell and Telus each have $30 unlimited data plans (as per Howard Forums), you can easily see that Rogers/Fido is the one out of step here. Do I expect Rogers to be the exact same? No... but a nice $30/1G plan shouldn't be a stretch.

[McMack]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Every country has their own reality... but when you see that Bell and Telus each have $30 unlimited data plans (as per Howard Forums), you can easily see that Rogers/Fido is the one out of step here. Do I expect Rogers to be the exact same? No... but a nice $30/1G plan shouldn't be a stretch.

Is this for all types of data or just for WAP browsing and text messaging? My company phone is Windows Mobile on Telus and as I understand it, we pay through the nose for data.

[kermitology]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

One, since the "Free Phone" of 1995 happened, no one seems to understand the actual cost of the hardware (and subsequent replacements of said hardware from the point of acquisition forward) in the pricing (and term) of rate plans. Hey, if you want an unlocked phone, fine. Cost will be about $700-800. Rate plans won't change much, but you are free to cancel any time.

Now I am not a fan of the telcos, and I dispise what happened to TELUS after Clearnet bought them with their own money, but you do have to look at some other factors here people.

1. Unlocked hardware doesn't come close to that amount. The money is in the term of the contract. You could still sell the unlocked phone at a reduced price based on the term of the contract. I bought my iPhone for $400 in the US. Unlocked it myself.

Clearnet was bought by Telus for those animal ads. And I hate them with all my being for doing so.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by McMack

Is this for all types of data or just for WAP browsing and text messaging? My company phone is Windows Mobile on Telus and as I understand it, we pay through the nose for data.

I don't know. I've been reading through the iPhone thread on Howard Forums in the Rogers section, and came across a bunch of people talking about it:

http://www.howardforums.com/showthre...&page=86&pp=15

Look at post 1289 in particular: "RileyFreeman: u dont need to. check my signature telus has 30$ unlimited data no tethering on any data device."

[Shawnski]

...

[Bobblehead]

The only other issue I would raise to Shawnski (and I can't argue with anything else you have said) is that if you did get an unlocked phone, you are pretty much stuck with Rogers of Fido. I'm sure many of the telcom companies subsidise the phones, but even if I did go to eBay and buy an unlocked phone, I would still be severely limited by the carriers. Telus won't accept unlocked phones on their CDMA network. I'm not sure about any of the other CDMA carriers, but they appear to be the same way. I would like to be able to have an unlocked phone AND the ability to change telco services to suit my need when I desire.

From my understanding, Canadian (and perhaps North American) wireless providers do not want to be seen as bandwidth carriers, they want to be able to supply the phone, any/all services on the phone along with the contract charges. If people can put their own ringtones and portable games on the phones, Telus/Bell/etc don't get a cut (good for them, bad for me).

[arsenal]

Well that is what is going to happen when WiFi VOIP mobile phones start more and more popular.
Phone companies in the 50's where the same as cellular companies are now. They wanted to provide full services, and get paid for it, instead of being a simple conduit.
I personally want the cell companies to become just that. A provider to the cellular or WiFi VOIP network.
I want to buy and use of phone of my choice, and be able to put on it what I want, with out having to pay the cell company providing me with the privilege to do so.
It will happen in north america eventually, I just hope it will happen sooner than later.

It's not so much the price of the iPhone plan per say that people are upset with, nor is it the length of contract. We are used to 3 yr contracts in canada.
It's the pitiful amount services you get with that plan. The cheapest plan, is useful to the person that uses their phone weekends only. And they aren't the type of person that an iPhone would appeal to. Unless they just want one to be trendy.

The typical iPhone user is one that is going to be using a lot of data, and actually use the phone to its capacity. Unless that user has a wifi network available to them at least half the time they have their phone, they are going to need the most expensive plan, in order not to endure overage charges. Even then, it would be possible to get over the limit of the most expensive plan.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by calculoso

And yet the same number of cell towers isn't going to cover that number of people. They are going to have to have 2x/3x/10x/etc the number of towers in the space of Alberta, which if you really look at it is really low right now (only covering the major areas). This adds additional costs that you aren't factoring in either.

Every country has their own reality... but when you see that Bell and Telus each have $30 unlimited data plans (as per Howard Forums), you can easily see that Rogers/Fido is the one out of step here. Do I expect Rogers to be the exact same? No... but a nice $30/1G plan shouldn't be a stretch.

Okay well first they would not have to add more towers to accomedate cell phone traffic in one specific area. They can place extra sectors on a single tower (which is A LOT cheaper) to hold more capacity. One sector can hold up to 7 GSM phone calls and up to 20 CDMA phone calls (this is why CDMA is the cheaper technology to put up and maintain).

Regarding the $30 Unlimited with Telus/Bell, it is only on Blackberry Smartphones and covers all data transfers except for teathering.

Originally Posted by Shawnski

And kermit... yes, in Canada, to buy a phone outright CAN be that expensive. Have you ever seen the dealers cost sheets? Subsidy grids?

Less than a year ago, one particular model was being subsidized almost a grand. And no, I am not at liberty to discuss particulars. But I do have my facts straight, thank you.

Shawnski is right in this situation. You look at the "No Contract" pricing with all companies in Canada and they actually take a loss when you go in and buy that phone for only $250.

When you look at a country like Australia (Vodafone), whos dollar is almost identical to the Canadian dollar, is selling the Blackberry 8310 @ $749 regular price when Rogers is selling it @ $399. To even say that the telecom companies in Canada don't take a hit to get your business is showing me you have no clue on what happens in telecommunications. We are spoiled in Canada with mobile phones!

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Okay well first they would not have to add more towers to accomedate cell phone traffic in one specific area. They can place extra sectors on a single tower (which is A LOT cheaper) to hold more capacity. One sector can hold up to 7 GSM phone calls and up to 20 CDMA phone calls (this is why CDMA is the cheaper technology to put up and maintain).

How many sectors can be added to a tower? Can a tower be "filled up" and another tower required?

Originally Posted by HOOT

Regarding the $30 Unlimited with Telus/Bell, it is only on Blackberry Smartphones and covers all data transfers except for teathering.

That seems to contradict the other post that I referenced above...

Originally Posted by HOOT

To even say that the telecom companies in Canada don't take a hit to get your business is showing me you have no clue on what happens in telecommunications. We are spoiled in Canada with mobile phones!

Spoiled? We now know who pays your salary!

I don't thikn that anyone has stated that telecom companies in Canada don't take a hit to get business.... they obviously do subsidize the price of the phone, with the catch that you stay with them for x years. Is making us spoiled? Not in the least. They're choosing to make the consumer pay less to get the phone and pay more for our plans. They could easily make us pay more for the phone and then they wouldn't have to boost the monthly rate as much.... but of course then it'd be a barrier to get us into the market to start with. Pick your poison.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Calc, do the math. There are FEWER costs per subscriber when doing business in a densely populated area.

When a new player enters the wireless market, where do they go? Big cities with dense populations first. They don't bother with mid size markets, let alone rural or connecting roads between major centers.

Currently, we're not dealing with a new player. We're dealing with a very established player who, if they want to grow, can either increase fees or get new subscribers.

If Rogers wanted to increase their market share (ie: get new subscribers), they'd use the iPhone to their advantage. People want it. People would switch from Bell and Telus to buy it. People would double their current monthly fee to get it. They just want value for their money.

Instead, Rogers is shooting itself in the foot with its greed and arrogance. It has the infrastructure already built. It has the perfect opportunity to grow... and instead chooses to gouge customers for things that other providers, in the same market, can seem to provide.

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Sure, but when you are the only player in town with a certain product...

Bingo. They may not be to blame for the current market reality, but they're the ones that are going to feel the brunt of it because they're taking advantage of the situation. Can I blame them? Not really.... but it doesn't make me want to like them - and this coming from a Rogers customer.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by calculoso

How many sectors can be added to a tower? Can a tower be "filled up" and another tower required?

It would depend on the tower and the technology but I have heard one tower can hold 10's of thousands of phone calls. The chances, especially in Canada, that you get a network busy is pretty slim and is more likely to happen with GSM.

That seems to contradict the other post that I referenced above...

I appologize I meant to type Blackberry & Smartphones...I missed the "&".

Spoiled? We now know who pays your salary!

You do? Who?

But honestly it has nothing to do with who pays my salary, it has to do with the facts!

They're choosing to make the consumer pay less to get the phone and pay more for our plans. They could easily make us pay more for the phone and then they wouldn't have to boost the monthly rate as much.... but of course then it'd be a barrier to get us into the market to start with. Pick your poison.

So the carrier holds a guy to your head and tells you to sign that long contract? I don't think so, I hate that mentallity that the phone companies MAKE anyone do anything. They provide a service and you CHOOSE to use it at the cost they see fit. If you think those prices are unfair then don't pay them and wait til the market changes.

The prices Canadian carriers is actually pretty fair when you compare it to the rest of the world you just have to be smart as a consumer to find the right deal.

Who has the best rate plans in the world and what do they charge? What is their client base compared to a Canadian company?

You look down in the States even at the largest carrier there is Verizon who has over 67,000,000 customers when the largest carier in Canada is Rogers with a customer base of only 7,500,000 (11% of the consumer base of Verizon). So now tell me who you think can afford to give their customers a better rate?

Its like going to a mom and pops corner store and complaing they charge more for chips than Costco does.

Seriously....find me the best deal you can in the world!

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by HOOT

But honestly it has nothing to do with who pays my salary, it has to do with the facts!

or more likely opinions...

Originally Posted by HOOT

So the carrier holds a guy to your head and tells you to sign that long contract? I don't think so, I hate that mentallity that the phone companies MAKE anyone do anything. They provide a service and you CHOOSE to use it at the cost they see fit. If you think those prices are unfair then don't pay them and wait til the market changes.

If the only choice is a 'get' or 'no get' situation, with no flexibility, then yes they do make you pay to get it. Obviously that's the way the market goes.. but there is also a Customer Friendly option - provide options at varying price points.

With the way the 'market' is, especially with Rogers, you'll be waiting for a heck of a long time. They're finally getting it a bit more with their data plans, and flex packs (etc), but they are still way out of whack compared to the rest of the Canadian market (forgetting the rest of the world).

Originally Posted by HOOT

You look down in the States even at the largest carrier there is Verizon who has over 67,000,000 customers when the largest carier in Canada is Rogers with a customer base of only 7,500,000 (11% of the consumer base of Verizon). So now tell me who you think can afford to give their customers a better rate?

If Rogers wanted to have more of a customer base, they easily could. I don't think it's THAT important to them.

Originally Posted by HOOT

Its like going to a mom and pops corner store and complaing they charge more for chips than Costco does.

Except when Costco is 100 KM away, you really don't have an option. Complaining doesn't do anything, much like with Rogers.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by calculoso

If the only choice is a 'get' or 'no get' situation, with no flexibility, then yes they do make you pay to get it. Obviously that's the way the market goes.. but there is also a Customer Friendly option - provide options at varying price points.

Exactly, you still have the choice to have a cell phone or not to have a cell phone. Every telecom company in Canada has plan options from $20-$300+/month. How YOU decide to use your phone is up to you, is it Rogers/Bell/Telus' fault that they want to make a profit? No. Is it their fault you feel the need to surf facebook while walking downtown? No.

You also have the choice to buy a Chevy Colbalt for $13,000 or a Porsche 911 for $60,000 or walk for free.

Just like a phone plan you have a choice on what services and features you want on your phone or even if you want one.

With the way the 'market' is, especially with Rogers, you'll be waiting for a heck of a long time. They're finally getting it a bit more with their data plans, and flex packs (etc), but they are still way out of whack compared to the rest of the Canadian market (forgetting the rest of the world).

You speak of the rest of the world getting such a better deal...please provide some proof.

If Rogers wanted to have more of a customer base, they easily could. I don't think it's THAT important to them.

Really, growth is not important to a company? That is the weirdest business sense I have ever heard and I hope you don't plan on running a company anytime soon because I could see, as CPers would say, an "EPIC FAIL"

Except when Costco is 100 KM away, you really don't have an option. Complaining doesn't do anything, much like with Rogers.

It may have been a poor example but I was just trying to make a point that companies with 9X the customer base have a better chance of offering lower prices to their customers.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by HOOT

You look down in the States even at the largest carrier there is Verizon who has over 67,000,000 customers when the largest carier in Canada is Rogers with a customer base of only 7,500,000 (11% of the consumer base of Verizon). So now tell me who you think can afford to give their customers a better rate?

Its like going to a mom and pops corner store and complaing they charge more for chips than Costco does.

Seriously....find me the best deal you can in the world!

Hoot, I'm totally against you with this argument. I don't have the figures, but I'll tell you why this argument is flawed: the number of customers does not necessarily their costs are higher. As has been brought up earlier in this thread, Rogers and other cell providers set up shop where the population is more dense. I don't have their figueres on their towers or anything, but I think Rogers has less costs than Verizon per capita simply because Canada tends to have clusters of people in certain areas, whereas the US population is widely spread and so towers have to be everywhere and anywhere to make up for this. I think the better indication to see whose getting better value is to simply examine their financial statements and see who what company is making more net income per customer (ie: total net income/# of customers). Regardless if Rogers is in the cable and internet business, Rogers screws the average customer IMO outta a hell of a lot more compared to other companies.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by HOOT

You speak of the rest of the world getting such a better deal...please provide some proof.

Let's take the iPhone in a vacuum.

http://www.cbc.ca/clips/mov/wise-iphonecost080702.mov

Originally Posted by HOOT

Really, growth is not important to a company? That is the weirdest business sense I have ever heard and I hope you don't plan on running a company anytime soon because I could see, as CPers would say, an "EPIC FAIL"

Right... I don't agree with how Rogers is limiting their own growth (ie: I think they could do things to grow FASTER) and you hope that *I* don't plan on running a company?

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Let's take the iPhone in a vacuum.

http://www.cbc.ca/clips/mov/wise-iphonecost080702.mov

They don't give any info on what you actually get for that $89...there is no way its $89 for only a 150 minutes.