Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[blankall]

I don't see why Israel has any obligation to listen to the UN.

Doesnt it seem kind of odd to anyone that there are so many anti-Israel resolutions in the first place. You may not agree w/ Israel's policies, but look at all the other things going on the world including: millions displaced in Darfur w/ hundreds of thousands dead, hundreds of thousands dead, Chechnya, Kashmir, Tibet, etc.... Israel recieves more attention than these problems combined....

The reason why there have been so many anti-Israeli resolutions is that the muslim states in the UN number 57. Together w/ there trading partners they can pass any resolution they wish. Israel should not be forced to comply w/ there demands simply because they are outnumbered.

Furthermore, the UN is influenced heavily by the arab oil block. This forces many "abstaining votes". The kind commonly recieved by European states.

Unless the UN can demonstrate it is an effective and non-biased organization, I don't see why anyone should be bound to its decisions.

[if.away]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

The people FREELY elected Hamas as their representatives. They speak for the people. Complete refusal just gives them the credability to the stance that they are looking for. Israel should have been smart, acknowledged the new government, attempted to negotiate with the assistance of moderates on both sides (say Egypt and Switzerland as picking two countries out of the hat). That would have placed the onus on Hamas to act like the government they were elected to be. Any issues Israel had could have been officially lodged with the moderates and responded accordingly using what was deemed as fair force.

Just because the people freely elected Hamas doesn't mean Hamas should get credibility and respect from the international community. It also doesn’t legitimizes Hamas’ extreme and violent ideology. We've seen this happen many times, especially in SA and with their Apartheid policy. Sure, you're officially elected but that doesn't give you the right to promote an extremist agenda nor it gives you some special automatic right to be respected. Other countries recognize your officially elected representatives but at the same time impose sanctions and penalties on you until there is a policy change.

Hamas is nothing more than a stubborn terrorist group that got too far up for their own good and doesn't have the know how to play the game in the new league. They were given the opportunity to act like a responsible governing body and renounce their extreme agenda yet they refused. From that point on, as you most likely know, the EU, US and Israel pretty much decided that Hamas is nothing more than a terrorist group that isn't worth dealing with. It's not just Israel that is blocking assets but the EU and a host of other nations.

It is also interesting to note that Hamas was given a 2nd chance to INDIRECTLY recognize Israel's right to exist while still holding on to their unchanged constitution. They also made sure to block this attempt by canceling Abass' "surprise" referendum. This is global scale politics in an extremely volatile region not some children's game based on stubbornness. How many times should Hamas be given the chance to straighten their act up and act like the democratically elected government they were supposed to be?

[Lucky boy]

Originally Posted by blankall

I don't see why Israel has any obligation to listen to the UN.
...
Unless the UN can demonstrate it is an effective and non-biased organization, I don't see why anyone should be bound to its decisions.

The UN approved the creation of Isreal in 1948. Isreal owes its existance to the UN.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

The UN approved the creation of Isreal in 1948. Isreal owes its existance to the UN.

Then maybe you can use a time machine and bring the UN of 1948 to this era, because the current version isn't doing its job.

[White Doors]

Here's hoping Israel can wipe HizBollah and Hamas off the map. Kill them all.

[if.away]

Originally Posted by blankall

I don't see why Israel has any obligation to listen to the UN.

They don't. What's ridiculous is that the other counties crying foul in the UN have resolutions against them yet they couldn't care less. Why isn't the arab world united or at least speaking out against Iran despite the whole international pressure created at the UN? Why are Syria and Lebanon completely ignorant of the resolutions against them? There were tons of resolutions passed against Iraq but those too were ignored. Seems that the arab world believes that resolutions are supposed to be valid only against your enemy yet irrelevant against yourself. But hey, hating Israel is the coolest thing to do in the Middle East and all over the world.

I guess Israel realized that the UN is nothing more than an impotent farce and a front for other nations to criticize them diplomatically. When faced with a choice between fighting for your survival or appeasing countries which hate you and will always hate you regardless of your actions I'm pretty sure what choice all of us would make.

[Lucky boy]

Originally Posted by if.away

It is also interesting to note that Hamas was given a 2nd chance to INDIRECTLY recognize Israel's right to exist while still holding on to their unchanged constitution.
...
How many times should Hamas be given the chance to straighten their act up and act like the democratically elected government they were supposed to be?

Agreed for the most part. Many of the middle eastern political experts on both sides (Arab/West) believed that once Hamas gained political power, they gradually move away from their military wing and focus on politics. They had already observed a year long cease-fire with Isreal prior to their election. Just to re-iterate what was mentioned earlier in this thread, Hamas was primarly elected by the people of palestine so they could clean up the corruption in the Palestinian government, not to start a war with Isreal. However, Hamas didn't back down from their stance to "resist occupataion" and they also failed to recognize Isreal right to exist. Opposers can argue that they weren't given much time to back down from their constitution, and the immediate cut-off in aid didn't help either, but I believe they didn't really show much of an initiative to peace with Isreal.

[spiteface]

Originally Posted by peter12

No, don't you understand... I was agreeing with you.

This thread has been hijacked by poorly informed and semi-racist posters. Unbelievable. Do you have a thread of rationality running through your brain?

If it was sarcasm i didn't pick up on it, my bad.

[blankall]

if.away,

I totally agree w/ you. It's disgusting we have countries like Saudi Arabia, who ban publicly practicing other religions, passing human rights resolution. Lybia has banned political parties since 1972 and is the head of the Human Rights Commission......

It blows my mind that people could ever support an oganization that would allow a country w/ a track record like lybia to the head of the Human Rights Commision.....

The UN is nothing more than a mouth piece for anyone who wants to express anti-US or anti-Israeli sentiment. Until it takes a realistic stance on issues and starts devouting its attention fairly, it should be ignored.

[Caramel]

The biggest problem is the creation of Israel, and now everyone is paying for it, including Israels big brother the United States. The Americans and the British did a great injustice when they took land away from Palestine and, created Israel. Now its not all the Americans just backing them, it was also backed by the British and Russians, and opposed by all the arabs. War there was justified when the they immediatley went in and started attacks on them. The worst part is the Americans back Israel, giving them billions in funding, and weapons.

Israel has crippled a already fargile country, that had nothing to do with the abuduction of 2 jew soldiers. Thats a great move by Israel start bombarding a country because 2 soliders got kidnapped. What about the prisoners that Israel takes captive? They want Hezbullah out, well then go for Hezbullah, why are they attacking innocient people, bombing road ways out of the country, and airports? What is the point of that? They want the Lebanese government to take out Hezbullah, yet the government is fragile, and have nothing to work with, when they have asked for help to rid of them, the Americans talk about how Israel is defending themselves.

This is a disgusting act, and the only way for things to be resolved is Israel being wiped off the map. Why are these attacks happening on the US, its not beacuse of that garbage George Bush talks about, its because of the support of Israel, and how they let such a great injustice go on, and support it with money and weapons that are in turn hitting the arab nations. You can add George Bush's name to the list of terrorists that need to be taken out. I ashamed that I once wanted Stephen Harper to be our Prime Minsister, he is nothing but a monkey. He knows nothing, hes a complete idiot, and we need to ge thim out of power as quick as possible. He comes to a quick conclusion that these attacks are justified, when he knows nothing about what is going on. All he knows is his boyfriend George Bush supports it so its all good. What a complete fool, this guy could be a reason our country is a target of these extremist.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by peter12

Then we are not going to see a solution to the problem any time in the future. The people FREELY elected Hamas as their representatives. They speak for the people. Complete refusal just gives them the credability to the stance that they are looking for.

Alright fair enough. What would you say if the people of Germany elected the Nazi party, which in a few years time started enacting one of their big policies, the elimination of Europe's "lesser races"?

Do you just stand back and watch it happen?

Does this "lesser race" you make an allusion to have the strongest military in the region and possess nukes? If that is indeed the case I take an active role in protecting Germany from getting its ass kicked! Jesus, this is like watching a couple guys in a bar jarring at each other, one of which is a little guy, wearing a pocket protector and dragging his laptop around with him, and the other guy is 6'6" 280 pound monster who has an openned can of whoop-ass in his backpocket. I'm going to try and play peace-keeper here and convince them they should be quietly sipping their beers and trying to get along. Both have a lot to lose from going out in the parking lot and going at it.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by spiteface

Many of the prisoners, and the ones Hizbollah were asking for, are women and children.

Negotiations include indirect intervention of the USA and Lebanese govts to try and alleviate the escalation and then perhaps disarm Hizbollah properly. This issue cannot be controlled on its own with the two direct parties alone. And if it isn't eased then this could turn into a massive war between West vs Middle East.

Okay, I'll explain it again. Under the Geneva convention, a country that has POW in their custody, is REQUIRED to retain those prisoners until the war is over.

It doesn't matter WHO the prisoners are, but the fact is, they are POW.

And if you want War between the West and Middle East, bring it on, we'll see how far your hero's get.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by spiteface

Easy there, captain america. Extremists in the eye of an ignorant observer from the West perhaps. Don't always think you're view on life is the only and accepted one.

I think anyone that walks into a crowded market place and blows themself up would be considered an extremist.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Caramel

The biggest problem is the creation of Israel, and now everyone is paying for it, including Israels big brother the United States. The Americans and the British did a great injustice when they took land away from Palestine and, created Israel. Now its not all the Americans just backing them, it was also backed by the British and Russians, and opposed by all the arabs. War there was justified when the they immediatley went in and started attacks on them. The worst part is the Americans back Israel, giving them billions in funding, and weapons.

Israel has crippled a already fargile country, that had nothing to do with the abuduction of 2 jew soldiers. Thats a great move by Israel start bombarding a country because 2 soliders got kidnapped. What about the prisoners that Israel takes captive? They want Hezbullah out, well then go for Hezbullah, why are they attacking innocient people, bombing road ways out of the country, and airports? What is the point of that? They want the Lebanese government to take out Hezbullah, yet the government is fragile, and have nothing to work with, when they have asked for help to rid of them, the Americans talk about how Israel is defending themselves.

This is a disgusting act, and the only way for things to be resolved is Israel being wiped off the map. Why are these attacks happening on the US, its not beacuse of that garbage George Bush talks about, its because of the support of Israel, and how they let such a great injustice go on, and support it with money and weapons that are in turn hitting the arab nations. You can add George Bush's name to the list of terrorists that need to be taken out. I ashamed that I once wanted Stephen Harper to be our Prime Minsister, he is nothing but a monkey. He knows nothing, hes a complete idiot, and we need to ge thim out of power as quick as possible. He comes to a quick conclusion that these attacks are justified, when he knows nothing about what is going on. All he knows is his boyfriend George Bush supports it so its all good. What a complete fool, this guy could be a reason our country is a target of these extremist.

Well shall we call you a terrorist? You pretty much summed up their manifesto's. The only thing sick going on is the lengths to which people legitimize these terrorist animals. Please add 'terrorist supporter' in your signature.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lucky boy

The UN approved the creation of Isreal in 1948. Isreal owes its existance to the UN.

Then maybe the UN should do something about those countries/groups that want to get rid of Israel, don't you think?

Or right, I'm a tool so you won't respond to me.

[White Doors]

If that guy thinks your a tool then you are in good company.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Caramel

The biggest problem is the creation of Israel, and now everyone is paying for it, including Israels big brother the United States. The Americans and the British did a great injustice when they took land away from Palestine and, created Israel. Now its not all the Americans just backing them, it was also backed by the British and Russians, and opposed by all the arabs. War there was justified when the they immediatley went in and started attacks on them. The worst part is the Americans back Israel, giving them billions in funding, and weapons.

Israel has crippled a already fargile country, that had nothing to do with the abuduction of 2 jew soldiers. Thats a great move by Israel start bombarding a country because 2 soliders got kidnapped. What about the prisoners that Israel takes captive? They want Hezbullah out, well then go for Hezbullah, why are they attacking innocient people, bombing road ways out of the country, and airports? What is the point of that? They want the Lebanese government to take out Hezbullah, yet the government is fragile, and have nothing to work with, when they have asked for help to rid of them, the Americans talk about how Israel is defending themselves.

This is a disgusting act, and the only way for things to be resolved is Israel being wiped off the map. Why are these attacks happening on the US, its not beacuse of that garbage George Bush talks about, its because of the support of Israel, and how they let such a great injustice go on, and support it with money and weapons that are in turn hitting the arab nations. You can add George Bush's name to the list of terrorists that need to be taken out. I ashamed that I once wanted Stephen Harper to be our Prime Minsister, he is nothing but a monkey. He knows nothing, hes a complete idiot, and we need to ge thim out of power as quick as possible. He comes to a quick conclusion that these attacks are justified, when he knows nothing about what is going on. All he knows is his boyfriend George Bush supports it so its all good. What a complete fool, this guy could be a reason our country is a target of these extremist.

Man you have credibility, especially with your hatred for the US.

Come back when you can post without being anti-US, or Anti-Israel.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by White Doors

If that guy thinks your a tool then you are in good company.

Yeah, I know.

First he was saying how he wants to make the thread civil and bring it back on track, then the very next sentance he called me a tool.

Hilarious.

[Caramel]

I dont support terrorist, thats why im against George Bush and his government, and thats where this country is headed with the horrible leadership of Stephen Harper. I hate how you people have one sided views, and don't do your research and jump to conclusions like our dumb prime minster. You sit there and what CNN, and be ohhhh geezzz yeah stupid Lebanon, go Israel kill thoose children, and the mothers and fathers. Understand whats going on, there is two sides to the story, and this conflict has been going on much longer then yesterday, it all started with the creation of Israel.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Caramel

The biggest problem is the creation of Israel, and now everyone is paying for it, including Israels big brother the United States. The Americans and the British did a great injustice when they took land away from Palestine and, created Israel.

Again - The majority of British Mandate Paletine given to the Jewish people to establish a homeland was uninhabited dessert. Pre-48 Kibuttzes were purchased from absentee landowners (primarily living in Syria) at market value. The UN partitioned the area based primarly on population.

Israel has crippled a already fargile country, that had nothing to do with the abuduction of 2 jew soldiers.

I guess if the soldiers were Druze, Muslim or Christian is would then be justified. (Druze, Muslim, and Christian citizens have the option of not serving in the IDF - most don't, some do.)

Thats a great move by Israel start bombarding a country because 2 soliders got kidnapped.

Don't forget the rockets going the other way.

They want Hezbullah out, well then go for Hezbullah, why are they attacking innocient people, bombing road ways out of the country, and airports? What is the point of that? They want the Lebanese government to take out Hezbullah, yet the government is fragile, and have nothing to work with, when they have asked for help to rid of them, the Americans talk about how Israel is defending themselves.

Did you skip the last 12 pages of posts?

This is a disgusting act, and the only way for things to be resolved is Israel being wiped off the map.

Way to negotiate for peace.