What if Sam Bennett has another good playoff performance?

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Oooh boy.

Yup...you win.

Now do regular season where i am arguing that he does very little to actually get the team to the playoffs where he can then perform as he has...as i have stated repeatedly. I mean whats the point of having a playoff specialist of you dont even make the playoffs? Something that was extremely possible this very year.

But carry on....bringing up how much you pay a guy who is a playoff beast but is replacement level during the regular season is far too much for many to handle apparently.

Funny thing is...im not even advocating getting rid of him or whatever. Just trying to parse what his cap hit is/should be. Bingo thinks he is a million overpaid, but makes up for that with other things. I disagree with that and have explained why.

What on earth is a playoff specialist?

Bennett got suddenly better when he was put in the centre position with Dube and Lucic.

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Oooh boy.

Yup...you win.

Now do regular season where i am arguing that he does very little to actually get the team to the playoffs where he can then perform as he has...as i have stated repeatedly. I mean whats the point of having a playoff specialist of you dont even make the playoffs? Something that was extremely possible this very year.

But carry on....bringing up how much you pay a guy who is a playoff beast but is replacement level during the regular season is far too much for many to handle apparently.

Funny thing is...im not even advocating getting rid of him or whatever. Just trying to parse what his cap hit is/should be. Bingo thinks he is a million overpaid, but makes up for that with other things. I disagree with that and have explained why.

Sam Bennett has played 5 full seasons in the NHL.

Sam Bennett has played in the NHL Playoffs 4 times.

Works out to a fairly good ratio. Don't think he's hurting the teams chances of making it to the post-season.

Not to mention the fact that's been brought up many times, in that Bennett rarely, if ever gets opportunities higher in the lineup during the regular season and finds himself anchored to replacement-level players, yet still has excellent individual scoring chance rates.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Sam Bennett has played 5 full seasons in the NHL.

Sam Bennett has played in the NHL Playoffs 4 times.

Works out to a fairly good ratio. Don't think he's hurting the teams chances of making it to the post-season

Sam Bennett had played 5 full seasons in the NHL. The Flames made the playoffs in 3 of those seasons so 60% of the time is the accurate number.

He played in 4 playoffs but did not play a game on the team before they had clinched a spot in his first year

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Eh?...in the scenario that a team misses the playoffs the 14 highest scorer is not to blame apparently....thats what i was responding too.

In the flames case, it would be Sam Bennett if this team missed...yes or no?

So again....what?

So you are making up scenarios that don’t exist and placing Bennett in them then asking what to do with him?

And you’re asking me what?

Haha.

You go on. Most people are glad to see Bennett doing well, as expected when given the opportunity they all talked about. Meanwhile, you are focused on him being a problem. Not now, but sometime.

It’s kind of weird, the obsession. Carry on

[AustinL_NHL]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Sam Bennett had played 5 full seasons in the NHL. The Flames made the playoffs in 3 of those seasons so 60% of the time is the accurate number.

He played in 4 playoffs but did not play a game on the team before they had clinched a spot in his first year

4 playoffs is 4 playoffs.

Even then, still batting 60% in a league where only 52% of teams make the playoffs

[timbit]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

It’s kind of weird, the obsession. Carry on

That is very rich, coming from you.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ don’t know who you are or what you are talking about.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Glad to know we care more about regular season stats than we do playoff stats.

Why does anyone give a #### about stats? The only thing that matters is winning and losing. Sam Bennett hasn't been a significant contributor to victories. PERIOD. He's a waste during the regular season and only seems to find that extra gear in the post season, which the Flames also don't win enough of. Winning is all that matters. As fun as it is to watch Sam run around and bowl people over, crash the net and score the ugly goals needed, he just doesn't contribute consistently to victories. The same can be said about a number of Flames. Time to move on from these guys.

[AustinL_NHL]

Since making his Playoff debut in 2015, among ALL Flames that have played at least 4 games during that time period (Bennett has played 28), at 5v5 Bennett ranks:

- 1st in total points (10) (2nd is Brodie with 8. Gaudreau, Monahan and Tkachuk have a combined 11 points in 71 combined games)
- 1st in points per 60 (1.75)
- 1st in total goals (7) (2nd is a tie between Dube, Monahan and Brodie, all with only 3. Gaudreau, Monahan and Tkachuk have a combined 6 goals in 71 combined games)
- 3rd in goals per 60 (1.22)
- Tied for 2nd in total assists (3) (1st is Brodie with 5)

All this while ranking 13th(!!) among all Flames forwards during this time period who played at least 4 games.

But yes, lets trade him because of some poor/unlucky play during the regular season

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by New Era

Why does anyone give a #### about stats? The only thing that matters is winning and losing. Sam Bennett hasn't been a significant contributor to victories. PERIOD. He's a waste during the regular season and only seems to find that extra gear in the post season, which the Flames also don't win enough of. Winning is all that matters. As fun as it is to watch Sam run around and bowl people over, crash the net and score the ugly goals needed, he just doesn't contribute consistently to victories. The same can be said about a number of Flames. Time to move on from these guys.

Stats - and lots of them - help you differentiate between which players help you win and which don't. That's why people are focused on a lot of stats, unless you want to say that "Everyone takes equal pats on the back for the wins", and "Everyone takes equal kicks in the ass for the losses."



What the heck do we discuss then?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by AustinL_NHL

Since making his Playoff debut in 2015, among ALL Flames that have played at least 4 games during that time period (Bennett has played 28), at 5v5 Bennett ranks:

- 1st in total points (10) (2nd is Brodie with 8. Gaudreau, Monahan and Tkachuk have a combined 11 points in 71 combined games)
- 1st in points per 60 (1.75)
- 1st in total goals (7) (2nd is a tie between Dube, Monahan and Brodie, all with only 3. Gaudreau, Monahan and Tkachuk have a combined 6 goals in 71 combined games)
- 3rd in goals per 60 (1.22)
- Tied for 2nd in total assists (3) (1st is Brodie with 5)

All this while ranking 13th(!!) among all Flames forwards during this time period who played at least 4 games.

But yes, lets trade him because of some poor/unlucky play during the regular season

Wait...

Bennett has more 5 on 5 goals than Monahan, Gaudreau and Tkachuk COMBINED?

That's insane.

We need to trade him ASAP!

[Enoch Root]

from what I can see, that isn't correct

Bennett has 7 EVG

Monahan 4
Gaudreau 3
Tkachuk 2

Maybe some of those EVG goals aren't 5 on 5 (?)

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

from what I can see, that isn't correct

Bennett has 7 EVG

Monahan 4
Gaudreau 3
Tkachuk 2

Maybe some of those EVG goals aren't 5 on 5 (?)

I believe empty net goals (either way) are still considered even strength.

I just checked natural stat trick for 5 on 5 numbers:

Bennett 7
Monahan 3
Gaudreau 2
Tkachuk 1

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Or teams that fail to make the playoffs.

Imagine this team in the playoffs without Bennett. I’d rather miss.

[AC]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

from what I can see, that isn't correct

Bennett has 7 EVG

Monahan 4
Gaudreau 3
Tkachuk 2

Maybe some of those EVG goals aren't 5 on 5 (?)

They each have an empty netter counted. Monahan and Gaudreau vs WPG.

Tkachuk's empty netter was in Game 1 vs Colorado.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Stats - and lots of them - help you differentiate between which players help you win and which don't. That's why people are focused on a lot of stats, unless you want to say that "Everyone takes equal pats on the back for the wins", and "Everyone takes equal kicks in the ass for the losses."



What the heck do we discuss then?

Don't need stats to know how the team is playing. You can see who is playing well and who is play like crap. The only stat that matters is wins and losses. You want something to talk about, talk about that and the quality of play. The advanced stat junkies can talk about how the numbers tell a story about the performance of this team in the post season, but much of it doesn't jive and it is easy to see which team has been better and which has been left wanting. We know where this team stands.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by New Era

Why does anyone give a #### about stats? The only thing that matters is winning and losing. Sam Bennett hasn't been a significant contributor to victories. PERIOD. He's a waste during the regular season and only seems to find that extra gear in the post season, which the Flames also don't win enough of. Winning is all that matters. As fun as it is to watch Sam run around and bowl people over, crash the net and score the ugly goals needed, he just doesn't contribute consistently to victories. The same can be said about a number of Flames. Time to move on from these guys.

You and I arguing about Sam Bennett yet again, it's always fun!

Your take on Bennett wasn't an uncommon one. I'd argue it was the uncomplicated one, but one that was justified because his day in day out regular season play just wasn't a sexy one.

However, look at what's happening in front of your eyes. He's got the opportunity I've long argued with you that he needed - and he's running with it. I'd say this is Bennett proving your take wrong - and it's freaking awesome for the team you cheer for. So you can continue to move the goal posts to justify an opinion you have, or you can be like "damn, I'm happy I was wrong on that one" and move on while cheering for a forward who is producing points at a better rate than almost everyone in the NHL in these playoffs as he also leads the NHL in post-season hits. Like holy hell - put those stat lines together, and don't even bother arguing that the stats don't matter, use the ol' eye test - it lines up. The Sam Bennett we're seeing right now is the player we DREAMED of drafting. He's showing the heart, grit, determination, and skill we need. Can he keep this up? Probably not, but does he deserve better linemates and an opportunity to play as a centre next year? Yeah, he does.

I was over here in camp Gillies and hammering the drum for him over Rittich for far, far too long. I was a freaking James Neal fan last year (...I STILL have my James Neal jersey ffs). Sometimes we're wrong.

The underlying numbers are starting to shine through. No one here is really arguing that Bennett is a superstar, as most of us seemed to have abandoned that take somewhere between Glen Gulutzan and Bill Peters - but just look at what he's doing AGAIN. He's "earning" his ice time/bump in linemates that you have said before he didn't deserve - well, he deserves it now, and he's making good on it. This is awesome for the team.

If someone is a Calgary Flames fan, I don't understand how they aren't loading up on the Bennett train. This could be freaking huge for the organization going forward. He's producing at an elite level at the most important time of the year, and so even if he puts up 30 points in the regular season - if he produces at a top level in the playoffs that's a pretty damn good thing - it's also really entertaining to watch.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by New Era

Don't need stats to know how the team is playing. You can see who is playing well and who is play like crap. The only stat that matters is wins and losses. You want something to talk about, talk about that and the quality of play. The advanced stat junkies can talk about how the numbers tell a story about the performance of this team in the post season, but much of it doesn't jive and it is easy to see which team has been better and which has been left wanting. We know where this team stands.

"The team sucks therefore Bennett is not awesome"

[Vinny01]

I am fine keeping Bennett but people need to be prepared for him not being anywhere near this same player next season. He will have games and flashes where he steps up like this but it is an impossible style to play for 6 months and 82 games.

Hopefully his confidence and offensive touch can remain but no one can throw 7-8 hits a game like he is day in and day out. When he plays engaged like this and the refs tend to call less penalties he thrives and is exactly the player we thought we were getting when he was drafted. I am happy he has shifted back to the middle and it is working. At the end of the day this is currently an 8 game sample size. I think some are getting a little ahead of themselves thinking this is a monumental breakout. He has always been a playoff beast and it has never carried over to the regular season. While I certainly hope it does I have been fooled too many times in the past. I am also not a huge fan of the argument it is not his fault and all due to bad coaches and line mates.

One thing I have always thought about Bennett is he would find his game and succeed once he moved on from the Flames. Optimistically there is a chance he found his role on the Flames after all. I was convinced he would be traded this offseason but I don’t think so anymore.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Quite aware of that...thanks tips. You might want to follow the conversation a little closer though.

I will say this...and maybe people forget cause it was long ago...but had the stoppage never happened, this club was far from guaranteed a playoff spot. In fact they were in a fight for their playoff lives. Part of that struggle was Bennett who was contributing next to nothing (not the only guy but certainly part of it)....and is that not who this entire thread is about?

It's remarkable to me that a guy who averages 29 points a season has people doing mental gymnastics to defend him as the second coming himself because he has been tremendous in the playoffs. Its just weird.

Hopefully this time (6th times a charm right?) he figures out how to play in the regular season (cause again you need to get into the playoffs to perform well in them) and earns not just his current salary but a healthy raise. But if there are people that are hesitant that it happens, you can hardly blame them based of Sams very own history.

Maybe it's because you don't understand what earns a salary in terms of point production? This year, in a down year, Bennett ranked ~520 out of NHL players for cost per point. That means ~280 players were paid more for each point they produced.

Last year, adjusted to his current salary, he would have ranked ~320 (he ranked much higher because his salary was lower, obviously). Which means ~480 players were paid more per point than he was if he was at his current salary.

If he was on pace for his usual ~25 points instead of 19? He'd be one of the highest value for point contracts on the entire team. Guess who would be above him? Mangiapane, Andersson, and Dube. Two guys on their entry-level contracts and one guy on a "show me" contract. This isn't mental gymnastics. Production costs money, and Bennett a year ago was good value for the money even when adjusted to his current salary.

Does Bennett need to hit his average ~25 points to be a good value contract at 2.55M? Yup. Is there any reason to think he won't? No.

You think Josh Anderson is worth $6M on the open market. Even if he achieves his career high of 47 points every year, he will still be a worse value contract than if Bennett achieves his average 25. You want to brush off playoff performance, sure. But there's no reason Bennett can't achieve his average next year (especially with his current linemates), and if he does, that would make him one of the best value contracts on the Flames (and it would make him one of the better (top 5 or 10) value contracts on the Blues, the Bruins, the Lightning, the Golden Knights, the Avalanche, the Islanders, etc. You know, all those playoff teams?).

So if the question is, "is Bennett overpaid for his production" the answer is no, and that's assuming he "reverts" to his 25-point self. And you questioned whether it was worth even qualifying him at 2.55M if that happened? lol