2018 Property Tax

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

And somehow you believe this means teachers deserve less, rather than you deserving more?

Crabs in the bucket indeed.

I've said here a million times I should have been a teacher. My wife wishes she had been a teacher. We're encouraging our kids to become teachers. All my friends and family members that are teachers will tell you it's the best gig in the world. They know they get compensated great, have a short career, have short days, and only work a partial year.

As I look back at all the layoffs my wife's O&G company has been through over the past few years, at how I've laid off two people, at how difficult this operating environment has been for every small business owner I know, I can't help but think government employees need to take a haircut here right away to share the burden of this depressed economy.

[The Yen Man]

I think for the most part, teachers are fairly compensated. I don't think they're overpaid, and definitely don't think they're underpaid. As with any profession, you have the slackers who put forth the bare minimum ranging all the way to the keeners who lesson plan like crazy and try to go above and beyond.

Yes, they do get a lot of vacation time, but that's also the reason why they're expected to spend out of school time grading papers and doing lesson plans. I don't begrudge them for having all the days off, but I also don't have much sympathy for them working "overtime". So in that sense, I think their annual pay is pretty comparable to a private sector job.

Their pension, however, I'm super jealous of, and good for them for continuing that gravy train till the crap hits the fan on that one.

[Arsenal14]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I think for the most part, teachers are fairly compensated. I don't think they're overpaid, and definitely don't think they're underpaid. As with any profession, you have the slackers who put forth the bare minimum ranging all the way to the keeners who lesson plan like crazy and try to go above and beyond.

Yes, they do get a lot of vacation time, but that's also the reason why they're expected to spend out of school time grading papers and doing lesson plans. I don't begrudge them for having all the days off, but I also don't have much sympathy for them working "overtime". So in that sense, I think their annual pay is pretty comparable to a private sector job.

Their pension, however, I'm super jealous of, and good for them for continuing that gravy train till the crap hits the fan on that one.

Pretty much my feelings. My wife is a teacher and she works a whole lot harder than I do. When you're in a classroom there is no downtime and planning/marking/report cards take way more time than I think a lot of people expect. At my job I have time to occasionally check out Calgary Puck, make some personal phone calls, maybe do a quick errand, etc. as long as my work is getting done. Her students need constant attention. Especially with how many high needs students there are in the regular classrooms without additional support.

At the same time, Alberta teachers are among the highest paid in Canada (I think it's second now but I don't have a citation for that) and the pension and benefits are amazing. Probably pretty fair compensation overall. They did kind of get screwed in their last bargaining when they agreed to a wage freeze and then ended up having to renegotiate at a time when the government and provincial economy make it unpalatable to argue for an increase.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Except the prices for consumer goods in our wondrous land of plenty haven't changed much at all. If anything, they've become more expensive with the advent of the carbon tax over the last few years. Couple that with consistent population growth, and you have a jurisdiction that requires additional teaching resources at prices consistent with the cost of living in said jurisdiction.

I'd be fascinated to see the hilarity that would ensue by leaving the reins of the education system to the hands of new grads, simply because they can technically replace a more senior teacher.

The cost of living should not factor into how someone is compensated.

I am not advocating firing existing teachers and replacing with new grads. That is an odd thing to infer from my post.

My question is is the level of turnover reasonable and is there qualified replacements. If as a result of pay and working conditions turnover rates increase to the point where you only have new grads teaching then I think we would need to increase pay and improve working conditions. Or if we found that demand for places in education post secondary programs dropped off we would need to make the career more enticing. Or if we see an Exodus of processionals to other jurisdictions we would need to increase benefits and pay.

I have no idea where we currently stand on these three metrics or what the correct point for these metrics should be.

I just object that the hours worked, holidays given, class sizes, extra curricular support or cost of living should factor into the discussion of how teachers are paid. The whole Sliver argument for lower wages and the respond he gets are emotional arguments. In reality a teacher should be paid the minimum amount required to have the quality of teacher we want teach our chlildren and to ensure that the profession is attractive enough that we get quality teachers in the future.

My gut feel is you could continue to freeze wages without affecting performance but would be open to arguments and data to the contrary.

[troutman]

Councillors unanimously pass 10 per cent commercial property tax cut

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...usiness-owners

[KTrain]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I can't help but think government employees need to take a haircut here right away to share the burden of this depressed economy.

The problem with this train of thought is if they take a pay cut now, when/if times are good again, everyone will be up in arms when they get a pay increase back to where they were. Hell, during the boom people were upset when teachers received a raise using the same arguments you're using now.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I've said here a million times I should have been a teacher. My wife wishes she had been a teacher. We're encouraging our kids to become teachers. All my friends and family members that are teachers will tell you it's the best gig in the world. They know they get compensated great, have a short career, have short days, and only work a partial year.

As I look back at all the layoffs my wife's O&G company has been through over the past few years, at how I've laid off two people, at how difficult this operating environment has been for every small business owner I know, I can't help but think government employees need to take a haircut here right away to share the burden of this depressed economy.

You'd find the majority of teachers in Alberta invest 6 years in order to obtain a teaching degree from a University. Not only is that expensive but it eats away a lengthy period of time where they are actually qualified to work. Teachers then put in roughly 30-35 years before they are eligible to retire and collect their full pensions. The average teacher pays somewhere in between $500-$1000 dollars a month to keep it funded for the duration of their career. Non-negotiable. This isn't just house money they're playing with, it's a massive employee funded retirement savings vehicle.

As for short days, I don't know many teachers (and I know many) who work a shorter day than anyone else in the workforce. Any teacher worth a damn is at school for at least 8 hours a day before you even start talking about marking or lesson planning that occurs at home after hours. They also have the pleasure of working with 30 different student personalities, needs and 60 different parents personalities and needs. The summers off just make this extra time whole when you really start to look at the numbers.

Private and public sectors both need to realize times have changed and get more efficient, but I would certainly question the value of many other professions in the private sector before I start suggesting many highly trained government employees need to begin taking haircuts on their once pay again. Teachers deal with a lot and at school and after hours. They are fairly compensated and as such don't deserve to be looked at with any more scrutiny than any overpaid engineer, accountant or lawyer would in the private sector.

[jgotti]

City workers just took a 3 year deal that was 0 percent 0 percent and 1.5 percent. They also took 0 percent in back pay after the original contract was over a year lapsed. There have been conscessions made by city workers

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

You'd find the majority of teachers in Alberta invest 6 years in order to obtain a teaching degree from a University. Not only is that expensive but it eats away a lengthy period of time where they are actually qualified to work. Teachers then put in roughly 30-35 years before they are eligible to retire and collect their full pensions. The teacher pension requires a massive financial commitment from everyone involved. The average teacher pays somewhere in between $500-$1000 dollars a month to keep it funded for the duration of their career. Non-negotiable. This isn't just house money they're playing with, it's a massive employee funded retirement savings vehicle.

As for short days, I don't know many teachers (and I know many) who work a shorter day than anyone else in the workforce. Any teacher worth a damn is at school for at least 8 hours a day before you even start talking about marking or lesson planning that occurs at home after hours. The summers off just make this extra time whole when you really start to look at the numbers.

Private and public sectors need to realize times have changed and get more efficient, but I would certainly question the value of many other professions in the private sector before I start suggesting many highly trained government employees need to begin taking haircuts on their once pay again.

You mean the people who have taken pay cuts or lost their jobs?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

... I thought this thread was supposed to be about property taxes.

[TheIronMaiden]

Lets also not forget that teacher pay for a lot of their classroom supplies out of pocket. Not to mention the extra costs of being a teacher. One teacher I know well had to continually pack extra lunches because she knew that one student in particular came from a situation where he was not guaranteed to have a lunch every day.



People who think that teaching is a dream job have clearly never stepped into a working classroom in their adult life.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by troutman

Councillors unanimously pass 10 per cent commercial property tax cut

https://calgaryherald.com/news/local...usiness-owners

I thought Nenshi publicly took a dump on this last week?

[CaptainCrunch]

How long until Teachers are replaced by holograms and computers anyways.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Lets also not forget that teacher pay for a lot of their classroom supplies out of pocket. Not to mention the extra costs of being a teacher. One teacher I know well had to continually pack extra lunches because she knew that one student in particular came from a situation where he was not guaranteed to have a lunch every day.

People who think that teaching is a dream job have clearly never stepped into a working classroom in their adult life.

You don't help people in your life? Why do you think helping people in your circle are unique to being a teacher? I help my employees all the time with a value way beyond bringing a lunch.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Weitz

You mean the people who have taken pay cuts or lost their jobs?

There are many, many people in these sectors that held out for years (and still are) because they refuse to work for anything less than what they feel they were worth 5-7 years ago. They now get by with short term contracts or consulting here and there and it's not uncommon at all.

Put out job postings in these fields and its basically Rick Grimes beating walkers off with a shovel only to see them diverted if the salary isn't well into the 6 figure category. Sorry no sympathy for people like this at all. Especially if they're the ones complaining about teachers, nurses and fire/police compensation.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

... I thought this thread was supposed to be about property taxes.

Silence you!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Lets also not forget that teacher pay for a lot of their classroom supplies out of pocket. Not to mention the extra costs of being a teacher. One teacher I know well had to continually pack extra lunches because she knew that one student in particular came from a situation where he was not guaranteed to have a lunch every day.

People who think that teaching is a dream job have clearly never stepped into a working classroom in their adult life.

I don't want to minimize this, as I'm sure good teachers are the ones doing this and I don't think they should have to, and good on them, but how much does that actually cost a year? $500? I hear it brought up a lot, but is it all that significant?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I don't want to minimize this, as I'm sure good teachers are the ones doing this and I don't think they should have to, and good on them, but how much does that actually cost a year? $500? I hear it brought up a lot, but is it all that significant?

It happens a lot but it's really not significant at all IMO. The problem is, would anyone else go to staples to buy printer paper, batteries, or other office supplies at their private sector job? I certainly wouldn't because it would be taken care of. If teachers don't do this, in many instances, then lessons or learning would just end up being really terrible.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

How long until Teachers are replaced by holograms and computers anyways.

Already done with Wikipedia and Youtube.

[Locke]

I dont think anyone is saying that we should chain them to their desks and allow let them loose after the bell rings or anything, but they are well compensated, have excellent pensions and benefits and vacation time and are completely insulated from market economics.

They also complain a lot.

Nurses dont whine this much and I think their job is a lot harder.