Francis: Tire Fire

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think there should be a process to that though.

1)2017 Pick - they really like Valimaki so no deal.

That's fair.

2) 2018 Pick - but if you're going to use that you better damn well make sure it's lottery protected or at the very least top 5 protected.

He made a mistake. That's fair to say here.

With only one caveat.

I would consider it likely that he said lottery protected and the Islanders said no deal. Then he said fine feeling confident in his team.

Any view of Treliving centers around process, and diligence ... I don't think he'd throw away a pick without asking.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Corral

This is what i don't understand. The Flames were easily swept from the 1st round and then acquired an older goaltender to run as the #1 and an underperforming Dman to fill out the top 4. I don't see what basis BT had for assuming top ten this year - its like the Flames thought falsely like many others here that somehow the california teams would just drop off ... instead i think each of those three teams have several years in them yet with their current rosters which means bad things for Calgary unless some real changes or drastic improvements internally are made here.

I think the thinking at the time was the division was moving to Alberta with the younger uplifting Calgary and Edmonton teams taking the top of the division away from the aging California teams.

That could still be true ... but the Oilers and their depth/cap issues and the Flames with a step back coupled with the California teams putting it together has given pause to the overall theory.

[Toonage]

Weren't the reports that it was down to Toronto & Calgary? Very likely that Calgary offered the pick unprotected to tip the scale in their favor. Losing that pick isn't what killed the Flames this season and it won't be what does them in next season if its more of the same.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

With only one caveat.

I would consider it likely that he said lottery protected and the Islanders said no deal. Then he said fine feeling confident in his team.

Any view of Treliving centers around process, and diligence ... I don't think he'd throw away a pick without asking.

If that was the negotiation then Treliving simply paid too much.

What's the disconnect? If that is the price you don't pay it because it's too high and you go after a lesser player who also costs less, or, don't pay that price at all and see the season through to a 12th or 13th place finish and draft hopefully in the top 5 but realistically in the top 10.

OR

If you're going to pay that price and go all in this roster, trade another 1st rounder, hell, trade a bunch of draft picks, stack your roster and go for it.

That's the second miscalculation he made this season. The first was hamonic, the second was not dealing Bennett/brodie for some offensive help the team was struggling to score 20 games into the season and the third was probably not firing Gulutzan prior to Christmas and hoping for that 'firing the coach' bump in the standings that might have given them some cushion for later season injuries.

Tack on re-signing backlund and adding players at the deadline as mistakes 4 and 5.

Seems to me the roster has been misjudged the whole year.

[dino7c]

I'm almost certain the Oilers do the Hamonic deal unprotected last summer.(it was rumoured at the time) It's not like BT just didn't bother protecting the pick.

Islanders probably assumed the Flames picks would be better considering everyone thought the Oil we're contenders. If the Flames insisted on protecting the pick the Islanders would have just sent him to the Oiler.

With hindsight maybe not the best move but at the time I understand. Both TSN and Sportnet said the Flames we're amongst the most improved teams over the summer...now those guys all pile on. It was a risk...so far it doesn't look great but who knows. Hamonic could still have a big future in Calgary and/or be moved for other assets in the future.

Unless the lottery hits I bet the Flames still win this deal down the road. Outside the top 5 it's like 50/50 that you even get an NHLer let alone a top four.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by smiggy77

Out of your list, the only one I would want to get on based on the price was Trevor van Riemsdyk or Emelin. Maybe Methot but it's questionable if he's able to be at Top 4 D without Karlsson.

Kulikov, Demers, and Hjalmarsson all would have costed a roster player or one of our solid depth guys like Andersson, Fox, or Kylington.

Franson's not even in the NHL anymore.

It makes sense to unload draft picks to get a player but I think fans put more stock into draft picks than GM's. They're still unknown assets.

Kulikvov was a UFA who signed a similar deal to Stone.

Demers cost McGinn who had 2 years at $3.3M left and was coming off a 17 point season. McGinn was a cap dump and the equivalent player on our roster would have been a Matt Stajan or Lance Bouma probably.

Hjalmarsson's a tough one because Connor Murphy's value is a toss up. He clearly had some value coming into the season but might hold less value than Kulak right now.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Bingo

With only one caveat.

I would consider it likely that he said lottery protected and the Islanders said no deal. Then he said fine feeling confident in his team.

Any view of Treliving centers around process, and diligence ... I don't think he'd throw away a pick without asking.

Quite possibly. But the mistake is still on his head because he paid too much in the end.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by dino7c

I'm almost certain the Oilers do the Hamonic deal unprotected last summer.(it was rumoured at the time) It's not like BT just didn't bother protecting the pick.

Islanders probably assumed the Flames picks would be better considering everyone thought the Oil we're contenders. If the Flames insisted on protecting the pick the Islanders would have just sent him to the Oiler.

With hindsight maybe not the best move but at the time I understand. Both TSN and Sportnet said the Flames we're amongst the most improved teams over the summer...now those guys all pile on. It was a risk...so far it doesn't look great but who knows. Hamonic could still have a big future in Calgary and/or be moved for other assets in the future.

Unless the lottery hits I bet the Flames still win this deal down the road. Outside the top 5 it's like 50/50 that you even get an NHLer let alone a top four.

There's still time.

[Split98]

Gio could not have done more to try and drag this team along, but signs seem to point to an issue with his passion rubbing off on the team.

After this season, anyone not named Giordano, Gaudreau and Tkachuk can go as far as I'm concerned, but I don't think that solves anything.

C - Giordano
A - Tkachuk (this makes me downright giddy)
A - Harmonic
Coach - Not GG

I would love to see this before anything dramatic.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by nik-

There's still time.

Sure... point is the Oilers wouldn't be scared of leaving the pick unprotected.

They were pretty much certain they would be over 100 points. Look what they gave up for Larsson, Reinhart, 4M to Russell lol

They do the Hamonic deal in a heartbeat...likely who BT was competing with IMO. Funny thing is he probably would have helped them.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Weren't the reports that it was down to Toronto & Calgary? Very likely that Calgary offered the pick unprotected to tip the scale in their favor. Losing that pick isn't what killed the Flames this season and it won't be what does them in next season if its more of the same.

May not be what killed them this season but we could be losing out on a quality prospect that can help us competitive in the next few years. I know some are saying they hope the islanders win the draft with our pick but still that is a terrible outcome for Calgary!

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

May not be what killed them this season but we could be losing out on a quality prospect that can help us competitive in the next few years. I know some are saying they hope the islanders win the draft with our pick but still that is a terrible outcome for Calgary!

Agreed. I hope Dahlin goes somewhere harmless like Arizona or Buffalo, and the Islanders draft a complete bust

[Toonage]

According to the odds posted at TSN this morning, Buffalo has a 18.5% chance at drafting #1. They likely will. Flames(NYI) right now are at 2.5%. By the end of the season that will probably be 3-3.5%.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

With only one caveat.

I would consider it likely that he said lottery protected and the Islanders said no deal. Then he said fine feeling confident in his team.

Any view of Treliving centers around process, and diligence ... I don't think he'd throw away a pick without asking.

St.L getting the Jets 1st pick 2018 for Statsny is top-3 protected. Obviously Cheveldayoff has no confidence in his team.... or just knows that weird stuff happens.

Did the Islanders expect to get a top-10 pick and stick to their guns to get it? If they were adamant on getting it without allowing the Flames some lottery protection it was a very educated evaluation that the Flames were not ready for prime time.

[Toonage]

Or, and hear me out, he (Snow) had two teams after the same asset and he he leveraged that.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

St.L getting the Jets 1st pick 2018 for Statsny is top-3 protected. Obviously Cheveldayoff has no confidence in his team.... or just knows that weird stuff happens.

Did the Islanders expect to get a top-10 pick and stick to their guns to get it? If they were adamant on getting it without allowing the Flames some lottery protection it was a very educated evaluation that the Flames were not ready for prime time.

What is the value of the protected vs non protected Jets pick at the deadline when they were within weeks of claiming a playoff position and well over .500?

It was a nuance.

It wouldn't have changed the deal either way.

Treliving either never asked for it (pointless mistake) or asked and was turned down because the Islanders saw a deal with a wild card team having an extra kicker of value. Treliving goes ahead anyway because ...

a) he thinks his team is about to improve
b) he knows it's a weaker draft

The Jets comparison doesn't really fit.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

you're bang on the money for why Treliving made the deal - impatience. The only question is how much of that impatience was at the behest of an ownership desperate for the team to make a playoff run to increase support for an arena.

Agreed. Treliving also fell in love with the player. He had been trying to make the trade for over a year.

This is the biggest issue I have. I like Hamonic, I thought he brought an element (toughness) to the back end that was lost with Engellland.

However the value Treliving puts on certain intangibles is way out of line. A first and two seconds is way too much to pay for what Hamonic brings.

Like cap space, draft picks are finite. You get offense for those assets. I'm not saying intangibles are worthless, they are important but not at the expense of skill, iq, skating, shooting etc.

Treliving overpaid because of impatience and that he loved what the player brought and that skillset is what's troubling me about the GM.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Toonage

According to the odds posted at TSN this morning, Buffalo has a 18.5% chance at drafting #1. They likely will. Flames(NYI) right now are at 2.5%. By the end of the season that will probably be 3-3.5%.

Well, they likely will not according to the numbers

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Agreed. Treliving also fell in love with the player. He had been trying to make the trade for over a year.

This is the biggest issue I have. I like Hamonic, I thought he brought an element (toughness) to the back end that was lost with Engellland.

However the value Treliving puts on certain intangibles is way out of line. A first and two seconds is way too much to pay for what Hamonic brings.

Like cap space, draft picks are finite. You get offense for those assets. I'm not saying intangibles are worthless, they are important but not at the expense of skill, iq, skating, shooting etc.

Treliving overpaid because of impatience and that he loved what the player brought and that skillset is what's troubling me about the GM.

Seconds are super hit and miss to even play in a bottom 6 fwd/bottom 2 D role, so lets talk about the first. Treliving realistically pegs his team at either just outside or in up to maybe second place in the pacific, so, say 14-24. The chances of getting a Hamonic in that range are not great.

I don't think it was a steal either way - it was a fair price and it's going to look better as time goes on. IMO Hamonic has staying power. Also, he may not be a scorer but he's got above average IQ and passing skills, in addition to being a really good defender.

[Erick Estrada]

I get the market and that a guy like Hamonic can fetch a 1st round pick but I'm really surprised that the Islanders got the 1st and two 2nds (this is a lot on it's own) for this guy. I think there's a reason he was available for such a long time as nobody wanted to pay the price and Snow just waited out GM's for over a season knowing that a few of them would get desperate. I just hate that it was the GM of my team. I don't mind the player but he's worth nowhere near what the Flames paid to acquire him.