I think it's time Treliving starts taking some serious heat

[Mister Yamoto]

If the team is improving so much why the terrible record year after year?

The team is bad and appears to be getting worse. Why wouldn't Treliving deserve some heat for that.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

If the team is improving so much why the terrible record year after year?

The team is bad and appears to be getting worse. Why wouldn't Treliving deserve some heat for that.

Patience?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I don't really care if Hudler's been hurt, he is a better hockey player than Troy Brouwer.

Why? Because you say so?
Hudler is slow, old, small and injury-proned. And he was a free agent.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I love Frolik, but he is not a better hockey player than Mike Cammalleri.

Again because you say so? And BT didn't let Cammalleri go. Feaster did.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I briefly bought into the Jokipakka kool-aid but Jokipakka is not better than Russell. In fact the only time he's actually looked good was when he was playing with Nakldal in a sheltered third pair role and Nakladal was getting everything on net. Never mind actually signing Grossmann, whom the coach had pure nepotistic relationship with.

I didn't say Jokipakka was better. He's not. But would you want them to have Russel back at his ticket?

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Raymond and Engelland are not better hockey players than Stempniak and Schlemko. I'll give Treliving a pass on Schlemko only because he's the one who brought Schlemko in (albeit by sheer chance with Giordano injured). And yes, Stempniak was dealt just before Tre got here. But not only was Treliving personally familiar with the player, the player hardly signed elsewhere right away, whereas Mason Raymond was a day one signing.

A reach to criticize him for letting a player go that he didn't. Raymond was a bad signing. Meh.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Freddie Hamilton has not been better than Josh Jooris, although that's a pretty minor one. Jooris has been hurt anyways so I guess Treliving lucked into a player not getting hurt.

Neither of these guys matter at all.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Hell, I'd argue Glencross and Jones are outperforming Alex Chiasson. Right Now.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Patience?

Yes patience.
Cripes for a fan base that prides itself on being knowledgeable this stuff is absurd.
The team fluked its way into a playoff position and beat a bad Canucks team int the first round. That, unfortunately, made some fans believe that they were closer to be a contender.

We aren't.

We don't have a second pairing dman, first line RW or a starting goalie.

The team has been terribly short on assets for decades. DECADES.
So we keep on swapping out GMs because we aren't patient enough to let things play out on a proper timeline.

Yes this season has been a huge disappointment.

But the key is the long-term here and building up the assets so they CAN contend, for more than 1 run every f'n decade.

So yes patience.

Or again, fire this GM, bring in a new one and continue the perpetual cycle of suck that has plagued this organization.

[btimbit]

One bad penalty and everyone's turned on Brouwer? He's been one of the most consistent forwards on the team and is far, FAR from the problem.

Trelivings bad moves, in my opinion, are very minor. Only one I'm not a fan of so far are the current assistant coaches.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Why? Because you say so?
Hudler is slow, old, small and injury-proned. And he was a free agent.

Hudler is a perennial 55 point forward who creates plays in man-advantage situations, can deflect point shots, and despite being slow, old, small, helped drive a line with Gaudreau and Monahan that generally scored more, rather than less, goals than they gave up.

And injury-prone is good leverage for a GM to make a signing.

Again because you say so? And BT didn't let Cammalleri go. Feaster did.

That is absolutely false. Treliving lowballed Cammalleri in negotiations after his contract ran out.

I didn't say Jokipakka was better. He's not. But would you want them to have Russel back at his ticket?

3.1 million dollars for just one season for a player that, for all his flaws, would be our fourth best (or at least fifth-best including a rookie Kulak) defenseman? Every time. We're paying nearly as much to our sixth-best defenseman who isn't even a regular skater on a playoff team.

A reach to criticize him for letting a player go that he didn't. Raymond was a bad signing. Meh.

Burke, Treliving, same management.

I'm not sure how much longer you want to wait for Treliving to put this team in cap hell (which in turn, eventually forces us to trade Gaudreau or Monahan or Tkachuk or Bennett or Nolan Patrick because contracts in this league immovable unless they are your star players). I can already see us losing a good young cost-controlled player with upside, like Kulak or Ferland to expansion in order to protect overpaid overrated third liner Troy Brouwer, and I can see us making a terrible overpayment signing in the offseason like Alzner to fix perceived holes that such signing won't actually, truly, genuinely, fix. I don't believe Treliving is going to find solutions short term OR long term. I'm not sure why I should, outside of the reassurances of people drinking the kool-aid.

[stone hands]

Definitely needs to answer for the dave cameron hire imo. This team has basically been without a top line all season and is still very competitive 5v5 against good teams. Special teams has just ruined the flames' chances at success

The bennet monahan brouwer line is stapled to the bench because they cant stop taking penalties and monahan has been awful this year, while garnett hathaway and freddie hamilton dominate down low their entire time allotted to play. All while going 0/23 on the pp at home to start the season

On paper this should be a great team and it looks like it at times, but its not consistent whatsoever

[goodyear]

Brad "Trust the Process" Treliving

A step back last year was tolerable but another year of suck is not. On paper the Flames are a paper team. Not sure if its the GM or the coach's fault. Something needs to be done. It's almost American Thanksgiving and they have nothing to show for.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Hudler is a perennial 55 point forward who creates plays in man-advantage situations, can deflect point shots, and despite being slow, old, small, helped drive a line with Gaudreau and Monahan that generally scored more, rather than less, goals than they gave up.

He WAS a perennial 55 point forward. What are the chances he reaches that again?

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

That is absolutely false. Treliving lowballed Cammalleri in negotiations after his contract ran out.

I guess. But by that time he was a pending UFA and unlikely to take any sort of reasonable offer.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

3.1 million dollars for just one season for a player that, for all his flaws, would be our fourth best (or at least fifth-best including a rookie Kulak) defenseman? Every time. We're paying nearly as much to our sixth-best defenseman who isn't even a regular skater on a playoff team.

So the solution to a bad contract is to add another?

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

I'm not sure how much longer you want to wait for Treliving to put this team in cap hell (which in turn, eventually forces us to trade Gaudreau or Monahan or Tkachuk or Bennett or Nolan Patrick because contracts in this league immovable unless they are your star players). I can already see us losing a good young cost-controlled player with upside, like Kulak or Ferland to expansion in order to protect overpaid overrated third liner Troy Brouwer, and I can see us making a terrible overpayment signing in the offseason like Alzner to fix perceived holes that such signing won't actually, truly, genuinely, fix. I don't believe Treliving is going to find solutions short term OR long term. I'm not sure why I should, outside of the reassurances of people drinking the kool-aid.

Ah the kool-aid blast. Never gets old.

I'm not sure exactly what you want Treliving to do. You blast him for handing out contracts while also blasting him for not handing contracts to guys like Hudler, Cammy and Russel. So which is it? Do you want him to supplement the team by paying UFA prices for vets or not?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by stone hands

On paper this should be a great team and it looks like it at times, but its not consistent whatsoever

On paper they are not a great team.
On paper they are at best an 7-12 seed team. At best.
This is part of the problem. Expectations.

They should be better than they are. But to say they are a great team on paper means you are looking at the wrong piece of paper.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

He WAS a perennial 55 point forward. What are the chances he reaches that again?

What about his game suggested to you that getting older made him less effective? Yes he had some groin injury problems last year and he's had some mysterious sickness this year. But his game was never predicated on speed.

I guess. But by that time he was a pending UFA and unlikely to take any sort of reasonable offer.

He signed a contract with the Devils that would be the best contract on the Calgary Flames right nwo.

So the solution to a bad contract is to add another?

One year of term.

I'm not sure exactly what you want Treliving to do. You blast him for handing out contracts while also blasting him for not handing contracts to guys like Hudler, Cammy and Russel. So which is it? Do you want him to supplement the team by paying UFA prices for vets or not?

I want him to spend our cap space (which we will never have again until he is long gone) on impact players - true first line talents, true top 4D rather than on filler players. Filler players should be cheap, not half the salary cap.

I want him to stop handing out bad contracts like Brouwer, Engelland, Raymond, and start handing out cost-effective, good contracts like Hudler, Cammy, Schlemko, and Russell. Or looking elsewhere, contracts like Anton Stralman, Patrick Sharp, Phil Kessel @ whatever Toronto Retained, Ryan O'Rielly, Kyle Okposo, Aleksander Radulov, Paul Byron, TJ Oshie, etc.

Good players deserve to be paid. But this isn't communism where every player should be paid like a good player.

UFA signings at anything significantly greater than vet minimum, should not be for "supplementary" players. They should be for game-changing core pieces.

[JiriHrdina]

Why do you think any of those players were options for the Flame? They were either free agents or acquired in trades.
Aa for Hudler he was god awful last year in terms of effort and production. I will be stunned if he's in the NHL after this deal

[btimbit]

Did you just call the Okposo contract good? Yeesh, you're scared of cap hell, but that's how you get there

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

On paper they are not a great team.
On paper they are at best an 7-12 seed team. At best.
This is part of the problem. Expectations.

They should be better than they are. But to say they are a great team on paper means you are looking at the wrong piece of paper.

I don't think they should be better than they are.

Backlund is playing great and is on a ~40 pt pace.

I think if you look at the production this year to last year it's even worse from Calgary's bottom 6 players and it should be expected. The depth of skill on the roster was downgraded with the loss of Hudler and Colborne and Jooris (Who, like it or not, scored 10 goals in this league), but the physicality has gotten better.

The goaltending is better but the defense is worse.

This is basically the same team that was good enough to pick 4th overall last year putting up some of the same numbers when it comes to things like special teams.

Flames are on pace to score less than 200 goals this year if I did my math right. The difference is the Flames have to play some semblance of an actual defensive system this year so the scoring from the D has fallen off a cliff. Brodie, team worst -13 and 3 points in 21 games was unpredictable but you knew it was unlikely that Giordano would have yet another career year and that wideman would somehow find his game again after pretty much never having it in the first place.

There is no evidence to suggest the Flames should be anything but a basement dweller this season. They're carrying a massive cap anchor in the acumulation of bad contracts and it would basically be impossible for them to be competitive under those constraints. This is a year stuck in a holding pattern. Once you can pay a winger 6 million t o score goals to alex chiasson is off the first line, then the team will start to look better on the powerplay. Until that time, it's garbage hockey city.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Why do you think any of those players were options for the Flame?

If the Flames did not offer those players similar contracts, then they failed.
If the players did not accept similar contracts, then the Flames had no obligation to sign the C-list players to big contracts. Not during a rebuild.

They were either free agents or acquired in trades.

So, their GMs acquired them is what you're saying. Our GM isn't held to any sort of real standard.

As for Hudler he was god awful last year in terms of effort and production. I will he stunned if he's in the NHL after this deal

Uh, Hudler had the 33rd best 5v5 production rate in the NHL last year.
Troy Brouwer, whom you are referring to as "consistent" has the 241st-best production rate in the NHL this year.

But I'm sure there will be some spin about how the only thing I am looking at is stats, and Brouwer is some defensive selke candidate (who is somehow on the ice for most of the goals against, by no fault of his own of course)

As for effort, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Other than a little stretch around that Panthers road game, I didn't really take issue with Hudler's effort. Look at his effort during Bennett's 4 goal game, we don't have a player on roster that could do those things.

Hudler is making almost nothing dollarswise.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

On paper they are not a great team.
On paper they are at best an 7-12 seed team. At best.
This is part of the problem. Expectations.

They should be better than they are. But to say they are a great team on paper means you are looking at the wrong piece of paper.

Cmon man, they are a cap team. They needed cap wizardry to play Grossmann to max out the savings.

I expect they are smart enough to stop using PTO players on their roster.

Wins still matter above any other metric.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Cmon man, they are a cap team. They needed cap wizardry to play Grossmann to max out the savings.

I expect they are smart enough to stop using PTO players on their roster.

Wins still matter above any other metric.

Cap team doesn't mean great team
Many teams have PTOs that they sign. Hardly unusual and for the most part a compete non factor good or bad

[zamler]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

On paper they are not a great team.
On paper they are at best an 7-12 seed team. At best.
This is part of the problem. Expectations.

Did you read any threads here at the beginning of the season?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by zamler

Did you read any threads here at the beginning of the season?

I did. Not sure what relevance that has

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

If the Flames did not offer those players similar contracts, then they failed.
If the players did not accept similar contracts, then the Flames had no obligation to sign the C-list players to big contracts.



So, their GMs acquired them is what you're saying. Our GM isn't held to any sort of real standard.

Goes back to what I said earlier. Lack of assets. They don't have the assets to make many deals like that

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Uh, Hudler had the 33rd best 5v5 production rate in the NHL last year.
Troy Brouwer, whom you are referring to as "consistent" has the 382nd best production rate in the NHL this year.

But I'm sure there will be some spin about how the only thing I am looking at is stats, and Brouwer is some defensive selke candidate (who is somehow on the ice for most of the goals against, by no fault of his own of course)

As for effort, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Other than a little stretch around that Panthers road game, I didn't really take issue with Hudler's effort. Look at his effort during Bennett's 4 goal game, we don't have a player on roster that could do those things.

Hudler is making almost nothing dollarswise.

Agree to disagree. I thought he was awful last season. One of the worst efforts I've ever seen. I would not want him back for the cap minimum