The Final Hip tour and reminiscing about Gord Downie

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Scalpers buy a share in a concert effectively, it's utterly the same as buying a stock in a company, neither of them do a damn thing to improve the product, they both just speculate on the potential increase in value, you and I have to pay more for our purchases so that the shareholders can get their dividend, it's completely the same as a scalper. It is all, as Marx put it, fictitious capital.

You've given a decent defence of your position (other than the inane bar band comment), but to compare the ticket scalping system as "utterly the same" (as above) or "no different" (a prior post of you in this thread) from the stock market is missing the biggest piece of the puzzle: There would be no stock market today (and by that I refer to the many regulated exchanges) as we know them without heavy regulation. The regulators intervene regularly to ensure, as much as they can, a fair playing field. Abuses abound but its far different now compared to the 1920's for example.

The ticket process is fully unregulated and is sort of like a stock exchange where the rules are fixed by the players who can most position themselves to profit.

But I'm with you that since its a luxury item, I'm not as concerned.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Delgar

You've given a decent defence of your position (other than the inane bar band comment), but to compare the ticket scalping system as "utterly the same" (as above) or "no different" (a prior post of you in this thread) from the stock market is missing the biggest piece of the puzzle: There would be no stock market today (and by that I refer to the many regulated exchanges) as we know them without heavy regulation. The regulators intervene regularly to ensure, as much as they can, a fair playing field. Abuses abound but its far different now compared to the 1920's for example.

The ticket process is fully unregulated and is sort of like a stock exchange where the rules are fixed by the players who can most position themselves to profit.

But I'm with you that since its a luxury item, I'm not as concerned.

Regulation or lack there of isn't the scalpers fault, I just find it weird that people have such anger towards scalpers, off all the areas of capitalism you could get mad at, I mean if reselling stuff at a profit offends you don't buy the bleeding tickets!!

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I see it as capitalism, it's no different from me buying a stock in a company, I do sod all to help the company I just bet on its value going up and then cash in.

Actually your cash going into the company allows them to operate. You may not be personally doing any work, but your money is.

I understand that in general businesses work buy purchasing something and then re-selling it at a higher rate. Using the grocery store example, I can't just go to a farmer and ask for 4 steaks. But Sobeys can buy an entire side of beef, and sell the parts to me and a dozen other people. These tickets were available in singles, pairs, etc. There is no extra "service" being offered. Instead they are creating an artificial shortage in order to justify their existence. If they were buying just 1/10 of the tickets, or even 1/3 of them, it might not be as big of a deal. However I've heard numbers closer to 2/3 or even 3/4 going on resale.

As for your last comment- "don't buy the bleeding tickets!"- how exactly is somebody supposed to see what may be their favourite band without buying tickets? If the scalpers hadn't bought most of them up, this wouldn't be a problem.

[habernac]

The ONLY people who benefit from this, aside from the scalpers, is people with lots of money. Just another thing out of reach for the average joe. #### scalpers.

[EldrickOnIce]

Every time the Flames come to town (Montreal), I use my 'ticket guy' to get seats.
Fortunately for me, the Flames go at lower than face value (while the Rags or Bruins go 2-3 times value) - but it allows me the opportunity to go to the game that would otherwise not be possible.
Difficult to use the service when it suits my purpose, and condemn it otherwise.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Actually your cash going into the company allows them to operate. You may not be personally doing any work, but your money is.

As for your last comment- "don't buy the bleeding tickets!"- how exactly is somebody supposed to see what may be their favourite band without buying tickets? If the scalpers hadn't bought most of them up, this wouldn't be a problem.

Two points, the scalpers money is doing exactly the same thing as your shareholders money is, it is allowing the promoter to put on the show, at this point in time promoters are using scalpers to ensure a baseline of sales, we as customers might not like it, and it doesn't help concert goers anymore than consumers paying higher prices for a car in order for Ford to pay out stock dividends but the business of concert promotion is helped by having a 1/3 to a half of their tickets guaranteed sold. Concert promoters could stop the vast majority of scalping if they wanted, just going back to box office in person sales as they did pre Internet pretty well ends the massive block sales practise overnight.

My second point is obvious, you won't die if you don't go see a band, and more to the point, this is an issue that doesn't apply to small venues and up and coming bands, not only will you spend less money seeing a band at the Commodore but you will support an art form that is massively struggling right now, the same night I saw the Hip at the Commodore some massive band was probably playing at Rogers Arena or BC Place, I paid twenty bucks to see the Hip when they were in their absolute prime in a small venue, while down the road people were paying hundreds of dollars to sit in a stadium with crappy sound and watch a band beyond their best before date on a jumbotron.

Small venues are closing down all over, the music that most of us love is rapidly dieing due to lack of support while we complain about getting ripped off to see bands who don't frankly need our money, at this rate who replaces the Hip?

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

No one has bought up all of anything, scalpers, with the absolute collusion of the promoters, buy up 1/3 or so, the third they buy is insurance for the promoter, which is probably why they don't do a thing to stop it.
There are many many more important items I have to buy every day that are effectively controlled by near monopolies real estate gasoline, milk.
At least concert tickets arnt a necessity.

Scalpers buy a share in a concert effectively, it's utterly the same as buying a stock in a company, neither of them do a damn thing to improve the product, they both just speculate on the potential increase in value, you and I have to pay more for our purchases so that the shareholders can get their dividend, it's completely the same as a scalper. It is all, as Marx put it, fictitious capital.

Seeing as I'm good friends with a very successful concert promoter please show me where they work with scalpers. You are assuming that scalpers are not using bots or other methods to get tickets. This would be comparable to insider trading on the stock market.......

If you think a concert promoter and a band want scalpers then you really have zero idea about what goes on.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

My second point is obvious, you won't die if you don't go see a band, and more to the point, this is an issue that doesn't apply to small venues and up and coming bands, not only will you spend less money seeing a band at the Commodore but you will support an art form that is massively struggling right now, the same night I saw the Hip at the Commodore some massive band was probably playing at Rogers Arena or BC Place, I paid twenty bucks to see the Hip when they were in their absolute prime in a small venue, while down the road people were paying hundreds of dollars to sit in a stadium with crappy sound and watch a band beyond their best before date on a jumbotron.

Small venues are closing down all over, the music that most of us love is rapidly dieing due to lack of support while we complain about getting ripped off to see bands who don't frankly need our money, at this rate who replaces the Hip?

I don't see how going to see the Hip at Rogers Arena is going to prevent you from watching shows at the Commodore or other small venues. Its not a one or the other proposition (unless two shows are at the same time of course). Many music fans listen to a range of bands, not just ones that fill a specific sized venue.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Two points, the scalpers money is doing exactly the same thing as your shareholders money is, it is allowing the promoter to put on the show, at this point in time promoters are using scalpers to ensure a baseline of sales, we as customers might not like it, and it doesn't help concert goers anymore than consumers paying higher prices for a car in order for Ford to pay out stock dividends but the business of concert promotion is helped by having a 1/3 to a half of their tickets guaranteed sold. Concert promoters could stop the vast majority of scalping if they wanted, just going back to box office in person sales as they did pre Internet pretty well ends the massive block sales practise overnight.

You do have a bit of a point; where from a business perspective the concert promoter is getting paid no matter what. So in that regard, it makes sense that they would choose the least costly way of selling those tickets. However in a concert like this they would have sold out with or without the scalpers. And if somebody like Platinum Blonde were to hold a concert at the Saddledome, you can bet the scalpers would not be falling over each other to snatch up all the tickets.

So at the end of the day we still have fans who may not get the chance to see their band play. You are right, it won't kill them; and there will be other concerts they can attend in the future. However somebody is profiting over somebody else's misery. I might also say that during the flood of 2013 nobody died from dehydration; nor was dehydration really a serious concern, but that doesn't make the people who were hoarding water and reselling it at higher prices any better.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

Seeing as I'm good friends with a very successful concert promoter please show me where they work with scalpers. You are assuming that scalpers are not using bots or other methods to get tickets. This would be comparable to insider trading on the stock market.......

If you think a concert promoter and a band want scalpers then you really have zero idea about what goes on.

Ensuring that a ticket is matched to an ID is so utterly simple to do but concert promoters somehow don't manage it, so yes they are absolutely ok with scalpers, if they weren't they would do something about it. Promoters could end most scalping today if they wanted, they don't want to as it provides them with a cheap form of insurance, they just won't admit it because it makes them look bad.

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Ensuring that a ticket is matched to an ID is so utterly simple to do but concert promoters somehow don't manage it, so yes they are absolutely ok with scalpers, if they weren't they would do something about it. Promoters could end most scalping today if they wanted, they don't want to as it provides them with a cheap form of insurance, they just won't admit it because it makes them look bad.

So then you have a case of absolutely zero reselling. Matching ID to a ticket won't work. Try again.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

So then you have a case of absolutely zero reselling. Matching ID to a ticket won't work. Try again.

Explain why it wouldn't work?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

Seeing as I'm good friends with a very successful concert promoter please show me where they work with scalpers. You are assuming that scalpers are not using bots or other methods to get tickets. This would be comparable to insider trading on the stock market.......

If you think a concert promoter and a band want scalpers then you really have zero idea about what goes on.

You should read Trent Reznor's (nine inch nails) words on how the industry works. He explained how what you claim doesnt happen is exactly what happens.

You have some pure artists that truly want their fans to pay a fair price and all that, but it exposed how the new reality is everyone, the artist, promoters, venue, benifet from scalpers.

Most activly work with them to get their shows "sold out" quicker and take a chunk of the profits as well.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

So then you have a case of absolutely zero reselling. Matching ID to a ticket won't work. Try again.

Are you suggesting that you want to be able to scalp your tickets but that all other scalpers are scum?

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

So then you have a case of absolutely zero reselling. Matching ID to a ticket won't work. Try again.

You could allow reselling via Ticketmaster- just like the current setup for reselling Flames tickets. The new buyer would have the new tickets in their name, and could show ID.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

So then you have a case of absolutely zero reselling. Matching ID to a ticket won't work. Try again.

I think it could still be allowed, but with a bit more involvement from the parties involved so it's not just a simple operation but more of a call to some service rep explaining, "I can't go to the concert, want to transfer ticket to a buddy". Not so much work for a single ticket exchange, but if you have Mr. Scalper it starts getting more tedious and suspicious. Then start limiting the ticket transfers allowed.

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Are you suggesting that you want to be able to scalp your tickets but that all other scalpers are scum?

Not at all, I am suggesting that concerts take place months after tickets sell out. Some people might not be able to go because things come up, these people would most likely want to sell the tickets AT FACE VALUE. However seeing that the name on file wouldn't match the person that bought the tickets AT FACE VALUE then they wouldn't be allowed in.

Do we need to go over the definition of a scalper?

[Cyclops]

Originally Posted by jayswin

You should read Trent Reznor's (nine inch nails) words on how the industry works. He explained how what you claim doesnt happen is exactly what happens.

You have some pure artists that truly want their fans to pay a fair price and all that, but it exposed how the new reality is everyone, the artist, promoters, venue, benifet from scalpers.

Most activly work with them to get their shows "sold out" quicker and take a chunk of the profits as well.

The artist gets paid regardless of how many tickets are sold, if the concert doesn't sell then it's the promoter that eats the loss. I'm sure promoters could care less about scalpers as a ticket sold is just that, but I'm not of the mindset that they actively encourage scalpers to buy up tickets.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

Not at all, I am suggesting that concerts take place months after tickets sell out. Some people might not be able to go because things come up, these people would most likely want to sell the tickets AT FACE VALUE. However seeing that the name on file wouldn't match the person that bought the tickets AT FACE VALUE then they wouldn't be allowed in.

Do we need to go over the definition of a scalper?

As has been pointed out, the promoters could come up with a system to allow this, alternatively there are all kinds of things in life that are not transferable or returnable, there's no particular reason concert tickets should be.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Can you guys make a thread about scalping please?