Let's Talk About Kijiji

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I know we didn't all get to see the emails, but can we say for certain that the adjuster definitely increased the offer because of the fake ads?

Maybe they were irrelevant and they just tried to lowball him in case he said yes. Then he fought back so they upped their offer. A lot like negotiating on kijiji actually.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Well he did say that people need to "eff insurance companies" and admitted that he thought it was fraud, so I'd say it wasn't your typical Kijiji tactic.

The only reason I can think of why people might actually not think this is fraud is because they hate insurance companies.

If someone made up a bunch of low priced adds for something you were selling in an attempt to make you think yours was worth less/would be harder to sell, would you think that's an honest way to go about negotiating?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Well he did say that people need to "eff insurance companies" and admitted that he thought it was fraud, so I'd say it wasn't your typical Kijiji tactic.

The only reason I can think of why people might actually not think this is fraud is because they hate insurance companies.

If someone made up a bunch of low priced adds for something you were selling in an attempt to make you think yours was worth less/would be harder to sell, would you think that's an honest way to go about negotiating?

I wonder what the public response would be if this tactic was used by insurance companies.

Place a bunch of made up low ball ads to pull down a vehicle's value.

[Locke]

So...do we need to start a new thread?

"Lets Talk About Insurance Fraud..."

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Right, it's not fraud.
It's just knowingly creating adds under false pretenses, and then passing it along to an adjuster without disclosing that they were created by you with no real car for sale, and made up prices, with the express purpose of creating the false perception that there were comparable cars being marketed at a price he thought was appropriate, with the intent of receiving more money. How could anyone see that as fraud?

Here's why I don't think its fraud:

This was basically a negotiation to determine what each side thinks the price if worth. Each side has discretion of what they think the car is worth. The insurance company just wants to avoid a court situation. All the poster did was "bluff" that he felt the car was worth more based on some flimsy kijiji ads. We know kijiji ads, for one, don't show completed sales of the final sale price, and that they can be made by anyone. Its evidence of nothing. All it showed was that the other side of the negotiation was prepared to make a fight about this. He could have just as easily forwarded emails from a few friends saying "I think the car is worth 6k, not 4k". Its meaningless, just an opinion.

He didn't falsify actual records of sales. He made fake kijiji ads which inherently every party involved would not deem as satisfactory evidence of anything. IMO, all he did was "bluff" and the insurance company likely knew their original offer was low (which presumably they normally do since they assume most people are unlikely to negotiate much) and the fact he came back with anything at all is probably why they upped the offer. I'd be completely floored if the insurance company actually put any merit whatsoever on the kijiji links. They would have databases of actual sales.

[Fuzz]

It's pretty much standard text in any insurance agreement that knowingly providing false information constitutes fraud. That's what he did. I'm not sure it needs to be anymore complicated than that.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

Here's why I don't think its fraud:

This was basically a negotiation to determine what each side thinks the price if worth. Each side has discretion of what they think the car is worth. The insurance company just wants to avoid a court situation. All the poster did was "bluff" that he felt the car was worth more based on some flimsy kijiji ads. We know kijiji ads, for one, don't show completed sales of the final sale price, and that they can be made by anyone. Its evidence of nothing. All it showed was that the other side of the negotiation was prepared to make a fight about this. He could have just as easily forwarded emails from a few friends saying "I think the car is worth 6k, not 4k". Its meaningless, just an opinion.

He didn't falsify actual records of sales. He made fake kijiji ads which inherently every party involved would not deem as satisfactory evidence of anything. IMO, all he did was "bluff" and the insurance company likely knew their original offer was low (which presumably they normally do since they assume most people are unlikely to negotiate much) and the fact he came back with anything at all is probably why they upped the offer. I'd be completely floored if the insurance company actually put any merit whatsoever on the kijiji links. They would have databases of actual sales.

Yeah, he could have had people send him their opinion of what he thought the car was worth and disclosed the actual source. What he did was completely fabricate kijiji adds which is basically the same as saying "Here are x number of people who think the car is worth x amount."

In one case he is being honest about where the info is coming from.
In the other he not only misrepresented what he was providing, but he created it himself with the explicit intent of presenting it as genuine.

[Leeman4Gilmour]

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com...nce-Fraud.htm#

Like other forms of fraud, insurance fraud requires that the defendant knowingly make a false or misleading statement, or, in other words, tell a lie. Simply not telling the truth is not enough--the defendant must do so knowingly, which means he must intend to make the statement and be aware that the statement is false

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com...nce-Fraud.htm#

"Here are some adds I found on kijiji"...sounds like a lie to me.

But he did find them there...he just omited that he put them there....

"I am selling this car, that totally exists, for $xxxxx".......

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com...nce-Fraud.htm#

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com...nce-Fraud.htm#

I think that is getting more at lying about the conditions that caused the accident. That is potentially the difference between the insurance company even being liable for anything.

The insurance company is not going to be relying on the other party to provide them with evidence of what the car is worth to replace. They have their own stuff for that. They aren't going to rely on kijiji ads. Him providing the kijiji ads worked as nothing other than a bluff.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

I think that is getting more at lying about the conditions that caused the accident. That is potentially the difference between the insurance company even being liable for anything.

The insurance company is not going to be relying on the other party to provide them with evidence of what the car is worth to replace. They have their own stuff for that. They aren't going to rely on kijiji ads. Him providing the kijiji ads worked as nothing other than a bluff.

No a bluff would have been him saying, "I saw a bunch of ads online that place the value of my vehicle at Xamount" and the insurer just accepting him at his word.

Going the next step to make the fake ads, and them knowingly provide those fake ads to facilitate a great financial return, well that is where it becomes fraud. It is completely opposite to the concept of Utmost Good Faith.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

I think that is getting more at lying about the conditions that caused the accident. That is potentially the difference between the insurance company even being liable for anything.

The insurance company is not going to be relying on the other party to provide them with evidence of what the car is worth to replace. They have their own stuff for that. They aren't going to rely on kijiji ads. Him providing the kijiji ads worked as nothing other than a bluff.

Weather they used the info or not, he knowingly provided false information to them. Its like, you don't have to be caught, charged or convicted of a crime for it to be a crime.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

No a bluff would have been him saying, "I saw a bunch of ads online that place the value of my vehicle at Xamount" and the insurer just accepting him at his word.

Going the next step to make the fake ads, and them knowingly provide those fake ads to facilitate a great financial return, well that is where it becomes fraud. It is completely opposite to the concept of Utmost Good Faith.

Don't get me wrong.. its not in good faith. It is sneaky.

I just don't think any decisions on the actual value of the car made by the insurance company were made based on the kijiji ads. All they did was serve for them to consider how easily this guy was going to go away.

The ads were no more than a negotiating mechanism in the grand scheme of things. They didn't up the offer based on the dollar value of the ad. They upped their offer based on the annoyance of the situation. I just don't the kijiji ads would be considered as evidence in the situation that would actually give rise to a financial gain. It wasn't like the insurance company looked at them and said "looks like we had the value pegged wrong". No chance that happened.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Matt Reeeeead

Don't get me wrong.. its not in good faith. It is sneaky.

I just don't think any decisions on the actual value of the car made by the insurance company were made based on the kijiji ads. All they did was serve for them to consider how easily this guy was going to go away.

The ads were no more than a negotiating mechanism in the grand scheme of things. They didn't up the offer based on the dollar value of the ad. They upped their offer based on the annoyance of the situation. I just don't the kijiji ads would be considered as evidence in the situation that would actually give rise to a financial gain. It wasn't like the insurance company looked at them and said "looks like we had the value pegged wrong". No chance that happened.

Sorry, how do you know the thought process of the adjuster &/or the insurance company.

You are using a lot of possibilities and what ifs. Based on what he posted, the insurance company changed their offer after he sent the fake ads.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Weather they used the info or not, he knowingly provided false information to them. Its like, you don't have to be caught, charged or convicted of a crime for it to be a crime.

Here's what the kijiji links mean to me:

"So I found some random listings on kijiji, where some random person that could literally be anyone, including me, wants $6k for the car", therefore I think its worth $6k.

[Canehdianman]

I'm loving the armchair lawyer opinions!

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Sorry, how do you know the thought process of the adjuster &/or the insurance company.

So Matt, would you be cool if you found out that an insurance company did the same thing to you? Used fake ads to settle/value your vehicle?

There is no reputable insurance company that would make a car valuation based on unverified ads, that don't even show a completed transaction. They aren't substantiated sales. I don't work in insurance, but I just cant imagine that a real business that relies on knowing proper valuation techniques could possibly rely on that as evidence. It makes no sense.

If an insurance company gave me ads to current listings that aren't representing an actual sale has occurred, and cant be substantiated, I would throw the links out the door and ask for proof of a verifiable sale. If they faked those, I would consider that to be fraud. I would also question them why they aren't providing actual evidence.

[Fuzz]

It's really what the internet was built for.

[Matt Reeeeead]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Sorry, how do you know the thought process of the adjuster &/or the insurance company.

You are using a lot of possibilities and what ifs. Based on what he posted, the insurance company changed their offer after he sent the fake ads.

IMO, insurance companies likely always start with an offer below true FMV as a negotiating tactic. The average person is going to accept the first offer they get as long as it isn't completely ridiculous. I don't think it takes much to get a second offer out of them. Showing some restraint and making them do some more work is probably enough. I don't think they toss out their list of verifiable sales because some guy sends some random non verifiable information at them.