2014 Training Camp Cuts. UPD: Oct 5 - Baertschi, Jooris and Ortio cut - Page 20 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

googol · 10-01-2014, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The other thing to consider is that even though guys like Baertschi, Gaudreau, Granlund, and Ferland look NHL ready they could always use more time in the AHL.

Look at some standout rookies from last year:

Palat: 117 AHL Games (2 seasons)
T. Johnson: 137 AHL Games (2 seasons)
Chiasson: 67 AHL Games (1 season)
Toffoli: 76 AHL Games (1 Seasons)
Pearson: 105 AHL Games (2 Seasons)
Jurco: 106 AHL Games (2 Seasons)
Nyquist: 137 AHL Games (3 Seasons)

Compare that to our young guys:

Gaudreau: 0 AHL Games
Ferland: 32 AHL Games
Granlund: 52 AHL Games
Baertschi: 73 AHL Games
Reinhart: 134 AHL Games

Really you could argue the most successful guys (Palat, Johnson, Nyquist) all spend lots of time in the AHL. Personally I don't think more time AHL will hurt them (Tampa Bay seems to be taking the Detroit method of things and it is working well), but selfishly would like them in the NHL since it will provide more entertainment.

The other thing is that starting in the AHL doesn't mean they will be there all year. Toffoli, Pearson, Jurco, Nyquist, etc all started the season in the AHL but forced their way up to the big club in short order. If they are NHL ready it won't take long for them to show it and make their way up.

Really the guys that should be getting the chance this year are Baertschi and Reinhart, with Ferland, Johnny, and Granlund all using another AHL season to get ready.

You shouldn't selectively pick players to fit your argument. You should have a long list of rookies and see how much time they spent in the AHL. Most star players don't need AHL time because their talent allows them to participate at the NHL level. I could also choose examples such as Mackinnon who has 0 AHL games and won the Calder as an example against sending players to the minors.

If the player is ready for the NHL, they should play in the NHL. If not, the AHL is a great place for development.

Nme-Territory · 10-01-2014, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Johnny doesn't need AHL time. It wouldn't hurt, but it's not required in his case. What's the point?

It doesn't apply to every single player. Johnny won't be playing a physical role, and won't bulk up much more than he already has (maybe 10lbs max). He can be sheltered on the NHL club. His minutes can be managed if need be. His risk of being being injured is equally likely at either level. His skills put him at possibly the most talented kid in the organization, let alone the roster. He has outperformed most of the vets. He can help the team now.

The AHL is a necessary stepping stone for many players, yes. But not all players. There are exceptions where the player is good enough that they can be an exception to the 'rule'. Gaudreau has proven to be one of the exceptions.

I don't entirely agree with this. A year in the AHL likely won't improve his offensive play, I believe this to be true. However, time in the AHL will allow him to play in more situations and work on his all-round game. I think he could play in the NHL right now but I believe he will be best served by honing his other skills in the AHL for a (maybe very short) time first.

GoJetsGo · 10-01-2014, 04:28 PM

The ironic part for me... is I think the main reason Gaudreau needs to start the season in Calgary isn't because he deserves it or because fans are selfish and want to see him...

it's because the team needs him.

It's painfully obvious that we're going to be extremely hard pressed to score goals. Outside of Hudler, Gaudreau would be our primary offensive catalyst and a huge part of the power play.

Pointing out we're expected to be bad only goes so far. This team still needs to ice a watch-able product and with our dire need to put up goals that is really the main reason Johnny should be on this roster.

skudr248 · 10-01-2014, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nme-Territory

I don't entirely agree with this. A year in the AHL likely won't improve his offensive play, I believe this to be true. However, time in the AHL will allow him to play in more situations and work on his all-round game. I think he could play in the NHL right now but I believe he will be best served by honing his other skills in the AHL for a (maybe very short) time first.

His all-around game doesn't need work, his defensive/offensive skills are far better than alot of the old plugs aheemmm.. 'veterans' on this team.

Rick M. · 10-01-2014, 04:32 PM

Johnny might benefit from playing a season with our AHL team for the odd reason that it is likely going to be a better team than our NHL product this season.

SuperMatt18 · 10-01-2014, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by googol

You shouldn't selectively pick players to fit your argument. You should have a long list of rookies and see how much time they spent in the AHL. Most star players don't need AHL time because their talent allows them to participate at the NHL level. I could also choose examples such as Mackinnon who has 0 AHL games and won the Calder as an example against sending players to the minors.

If the player is ready for the NHL, they should play in the NHL. If not, the AHL is a great place for development.

It was more in response that players have nothing to gain, and spending another year will hurt their NHL development.

Also rookies in the top 20 in NHL rookie scoring last year that spend no time in the AHL:

Mackinnon
Monahan
Nichuskin
Scheifele
Trouba
Reilly

Also for all of those players it was either NHL or CHL (also were all top 10 picks), the AHL wasn't an option. When the AHL is the option for a player that tends to be the best course of action.

From a selfish perspective I would prefer all of our young guys in the NHL, but from a development perspective I would rather do what the Kings, Wings, and Lightning do by making their players over-develop in the AHL, instead of being like the Oilers who just rush all their prospects into the NHL.

Nme-Territory · 10-01-2014, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skudr248

His all-around game doesn't need work, his defensive/offensive skills are far better than alot of the old plugs aheemmm.. 'veterans' on this team.

I guess I just believe his bar could be set higher than that of an every day vet. He has the potential to be great! It's not about being good enough to be on the team, which I believe he is. It's about reaching his potential. Between bringing him in when he's good enough (now) and bringing him in when he can achieve a higher ceiling (sometime later), I am firmly in the line with the latter.

CliffFletcher · 10-01-2014, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

The ironic part for me... is I think the main reason Gaudreau needs to start the season in Calgary isn't because he deserves it or because fans are selfish and want to see him...

it's because the team needs him.

It's painfully obvious that we're going to be extremely hard pressed to score goals. Outside of Hudler, Gaudreau would be our primary offensive catalyst and a huge part of the power play.

Pointing out we're expected to be bad only goes so far. This team still needs to ice a watch-able product and with our dire need to put up goals that is really the main reason Johnny should be on this roster.

Isn't that the approach Edmonton took with their top prospects? How's that working out for them?

4oh3 · 10-01-2014, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick M.

Johnny might benefit from playing a season with our AHL team for the odd reason that it is likely going to be a better team than our NHL product this season.

But is Baby Flames make the playoffs. Can't Gaudreubey Baker get sent to the team after Calgarys is done.

GoJetsGo · 10-01-2014, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Isn't that the approach Edmonton took with their top prospects? How's that working out for them?

Just because Edmonton made this approach their mandate across the board doesn't mean a rookie should never make a team when the situation warrants it. That couldn't be any more short sighted.

Its also worth noting, I think the NHL is the best place for his development. I just think thats secondary to the team needing him in this case.

djsFlames · 10-01-2014, 04:52 PM

It's going to be a less painful season with Gaudreau in the lineup than without. Treliving says the number one thing that keeps him up at night about this team is how they're going to score. They'll need Gaudreau for that sole reason, if nothing else. He can quarterback the power play effectively and will make up a good portion of the offence we lost with Cammalleri if he's used correctly.

I think regardless of what we think, the GM and coach will be inclined to keep him to help this team's offence because we have no better (/experienced) options currently.

Street Pharmacist · 10-01-2014, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Isn't that the approach Edmonton took with their top prospects? How's that working out for them?

Why do people compare a 20 year old Gaudreau to an 18 year old rookie? He's already spent 3 years developing. It's not like he was just drafted...

GoJetsGo · 10-01-2014, 04:55 PM

Isn't he 21 now? Regardless, i think he is ready and its the best place for him. My point was if they are on the fence the fact the team needs him should make it an easier decision

CliffFletcher · 10-01-2014, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Just because Edmonton made this approach their mandate across the board doesn't mean a rookie should never make a team when the situation warrants it. That couldn't be any more short sighted.

To be more specific: We don't have much talent and we need to score goals, so let's put our most talented prospects in the NHL because they can score is the approach I'm dubious of. If you project a guy to be a top-six forward who is going to get a lot of ice time, you want him to have a good all-around game. If Gaudreau has room to grow his game without the puck, the AHL is probably the best place to do it. And if he improves that part of his game quickly in the AHL and is back in the NHL in 30 games, then fine.

CliffFletcher · 10-01-2014, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Why do people compare a 20 year old Gaudreau to an 18 year old rookie? He's already spent 3 years developing. It's not like he was just drafted...

There's a big difference between college hockey and pro hockey.

Street Pharmacist · 10-01-2014, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There's a big difference between college hockey and pro hockey.

There's also a large difference between CHL and college. Point is, at 21 he's spent plenty of time developing and has no similarity in his development path to Hall, RNH, Yakupov or Eberle. If he needs to play in the AHL to develop properly, it has nothing to do with the going show path in Edmonton.

GoJetsGo · 10-01-2014, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

To be more specific: We don't have much talent and we need to score goals, so let's put our most talented prospects in the NHL because they can score is the approach I'm dubious of. If you project a guy to be a top-six forward who is going to get a lot of ice time, you want him to have a good all-around game. If Gaudreau has room to grow his game without the puck, the AHL is probably the best place to do it. And if he improves that part of his game quickly in the AHL and is back in the NHL in 30 games, then fine.

If thats your take thats fine, but as I said, I think he's ready and that his development is better served in the NHL. That's in addition to the fact the team will benefit from his presence.

Street Pharmacist · 10-01-2014, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

To be more specific: We don't have much talent and we need to score goals, so let's put our most talented prospects in the NHL because they can score is the approach I'm dubious of. If you project a guy to be a top-six forward who is going to get a lot of ice time, you want him to have a good all-around game. If Gaudreau has room to grow his game without the puck, the AHL is probably the best place to do it. And if he improves that part of his game quickly in the AHL and is back in the NHL in 30 games, then fine.

This I agree with, though I'd argue he can learn that stuff in the NHL too. The big damage that can be done with bringing up a player too early is if they get discouraged by failure and overwhelmed by the amount of learning they need to do. Neither of those things seems likely for Gaudreau.

He won't be harmed by starting in the AHL though

sureLoss · 10-01-2014, 05:14 PM

I won't be nonplussed if the Flames assign Gaudreau to the AHL.

Gaudreau being Gaudreau, he will have forced them to call him back up within a few weeks

Ashasx · 10-01-2014, 05:19 PM

I would be pretty nonplussed to see Jones and Setoguchi to take spots over Gaudreau.