[Signing] Flames sign Mason Raymond (3yrs, $3.15mil AAV, modified NTC)

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Sven has a long way to go before he's even close to a Raymond value player.

If we could get a 2nd round pick for Mason Raymond, even if we had to eat salary, I would be ecstatic.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't have a big problem with his pay. I don't like the term that much, or the NMC. I think that they didn't expect the kids to develop as fast, including Gaudreau and Jooris making the team out of camp, or Granlund to be such a decent call-up. So they will have a tough decision to make for next year IMO. They may consider a buyout.

This absolutely. Or else they wouldn't have signed either Raymond or Stajan to those contracts that they did. Anyway Stajan's been particularly good since returning from his leave of absence for the birth of his child. Raymond not so much. Raymond can pick it up but needs to do so right about now.

I Also can see them doing a buyout if they don't see a fit here anymore.

[FAN]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think that they didn't expect the kids to develop as fast, including Gaudreau and Jooris making the team out of camp, or Granlund to be such a decent call-up. So they will have a tough decision to make for next year IMO. They may consider a buyout.

Originally Posted by Karl

This absolutely. Or else they wouldn't have signed either Raymond or Stajan to those contracts that they did. Anyway Stajan's been particularly good since returning from his leave of absence for the birth of his child. Raymond not so much. Raymond can pick it up but needs to do so right about now.

I Also can see them doing a buyout if they don't see a fit here anymore.

Re-signing Stajan (bad deal) made sense considering the team's center depth, but signing Raymond always made little sense. The team was going to give the kids every opportunity win or lose and Raymond just doesn't do anything for the team. He gives the team another live body. He doesn't help the team get into the playoffs and he doesn't help the team long term.

[Red Menace]

I like Stajan to an extent, but paying your 4th line C $3.5 million is awful cap management, regardless if you can afford it or not.
I like Raymond on the 4th line last night too, but again he is making +3mill.
If these guys are 4th liners they need to be shuttled away next season

[Moneyhands23]

Wow, would it ever be a great time for this guy to go on one of his streaks!!!

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

I like Stajan to an extent, but paying your 4th line C $3.5 million is awful cap management, regardless if you can afford it or not.
I like Raymond on the 4th line last night too, but again he is making +3mill.
If these guys are 4th liners they need to be shuttled away next season

Yeah but this is part of young players evolving. Guys like Stajan or Raymond were paid as "go to" type roles (top 6) but when the young guys or any other guys for that matter evolve and move up the depth chart, you have no choice but to put the higher paying players down the depth chart. I don't think that is awful cap management at this point because we have no big hits on the cap with any of the top 6.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by FAN

Re-signing Stajan (bad deal) made sense considering the team's center depth, but signing Raymond always made little sense. The team was going to give the kids every opportunity win or lose and Raymond just doesn't do anything for the team. He gives the team another live body. He doesn't help the team get into the playoffs and he doesn't help the team long term.

I do think Raymond was plan B once Cammy decided to walk. Treliving has stated he didn't think Johnny would be doing what he is doing this quickly. Also Bouma, Jooris, have really come out of nowhere to elevate beyond a 4th liner, and actually become a full time NHLer.

If the flames eat a bit of salty they can hopefully move Raymond in the summer but he is turning into Setoguchi just eating up a spot on the roster.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by Moneyhands23

Wow, would it ever be a great time for this guy to go on one of his streaks!!!

Sorry but I gotta say, every time I see your posts I can't help but chuckle to myself and start counting down to the end of the season. You are funny.

[Red Menace]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

Yeah but this is part of young players evolving. Guys like Stajan or Raymond were paid as "go to" type roles (top 6) but when the young guys or any other guys for that matter evolve and move up the depth chart, you have no choice but to put the higher paying players down the depth chart. I don't think that is awful cap management at this point because we have no big hits on the cap with any of the top 6.

Stajan got extended in January of last season, when he was far from being any kind of "go to" player.
We are going to have some big cap hits coming in 2016-17 as Giordano, Monahan, Gaudreau, Hudler, and Russell will all need to be re-signed (in addition to salary bumps for Backlund + Bouma this upcoming off-season)
At that point we will still be on the hook for Stajan's deal for 2 more seasons.
I don't think the excuse that we had lots of room at the time erases that it was a poor deal to begin with...regardless of how much we all like Stajan as a person.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

I like Stajan to an extent, but paying your 4th line C $3.5 million is awful cap management, regardless if you can afford it or not.

Right now the Stajan cap hit works out perfectly as it keeps us at the floor. I don't like the term but it's a better contract than the Mike Richards one, and the Mike Richards one was a big factor in the Kings picking up two cups in three years. Poor cap management? Only one ultimate goal and it's a championship and I think they'd take two cups and some last-minute "figuring out" and run with it.

Every team has some contracts that hurt when players see themselves pushed down the depth chart... The Blues have like a 6.5-7m cap hit for statsny, who has been passed by a rookie and sees himself as a 3rd line center. Next year they have to resign Tarasenko but if they win a cup this year, I think they're probably okay with moving someone out, maybe Bouwmeester. The Blackhawks have some wierd contracts themselves that they've had to figure out (Brandon Bollig, for one).

There's no such thing as perfect cap management, but the key is if a contract is movable. Stajan's plenty movable especially in a few years when we actually need the space. Engelland, Smid, Bollig or Raymond are collectively eating about 12m in cap hit together on thr other hand and individually we can hopefully move them. Smid might be put on LTIR or retire in which case Stajan's 3.5m cap hit isn't the biggest deal until the time comes when Bennett/Poirier need an extension. I think even stajan's expiring by then.

A bad 3rd/4th liner contract for above avg performance is better than a bad 1st liner contract like Phaneuf or Kessel.

[Red Menace]

^
I don't disagree with you, but what you're really saying is, "it could be worse"
which to me is not the best evaluation of a deal.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

^
I don't disagree with you, but what you're really saying is, "it could be worse"
which to me is not the best evaluation of a deal.

No, I'm saying that pretty much every single team has a few depth players making decent money. It's not "poor" cap mamagement it's just typical.

[Red Menace]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

No, I'm saying that pretty much every single team has a few depth players making decent money. It's not "poor" cap mamagement it's just typical.

I agree every team has good and bad deals, this is one of our bad ones...it is typical to what other teams do....but it doesn't mean we cant point it out as one of the poor ones.

[GioforPM]

Stajan's contract, both when extended and now, is not that much different from a lot of veteran centres of his age, many of whom do not play top 6 minutes.

It's not that easy to find a centre who can play pretty much on any line (eg. if Monahan went down I'd probably leave the 2nd and 3rd lines alone and put Stajan up there, similar to how Engelland went from bottom to pairing with Brodie), is a faceoff winner, is a leader in the room and will accept whatever role is given. And when the chips are down, like last night, he performs. His line could easily have potted two or three.

Now this thread is actually about Raymond, who is nowhere near as versatile. But it's a shorter term and his price tag is also what you pay UFA 20 goal scorers. When he was signed it was unlikely Johnny was going to make the team and Josh Jooris was not on anyone's radar at all. That's two left wing positions to fill and Treliving also knew that this was likely Glencross' last year.

[Fire]

My concern is not with the money these guys (Stajan, Raymond, Bollig, Jones) are being paid, but the clutter of forwards the Flames are going to have next season. I count 16 forwards that could easily be on the NHL roster next season. If Poirier needs more time in the AHL then that drops to 15.

Ferland should be taking Bollig's spot. Bennett will force his way on the team. Probably forces Granlund to the wing. Ideally Granlund would take Raymond's spot in the line-up. Shore seems like an ideal 4th line center, even though I do like how Stajan is playing in that role. I think the Flames should probably keep Jones, but Poirier will be fighting for a RW spot next season.

I'm hoping after watching the team this season that Treliving at least passes on signing any UFAs this season, especially up front.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Fire

My concern is not with the money these guys (Stajan, Raymond, Bollig, Jones) are being paid, but the clutter of forwards the Flames are going to have next season. I count 16 forwards that could easily be on the NHL roster next season. If Poirier needs more time in the AHL then that drops to 15.

Ferland should be taking Bollig's spot. Bennett will force his way on the team. Probably forces Granlund to the wing. Ideally Granlund would take Raymond's spot in the line-up. Shore seems like an ideal 4th line center, even though I do like how Stajan is playing in that role. I think the Flames should probably keep Jones, but Poirier will be fighting for a RW spot next season.

I'm hoping after watching the team this season that Treliving at least passes on signing any UFAs this season, especially up front.

I'm failing to understand the issue with the clutter of forwards though? Who cares, other than the owners and the impact to their pocket books? This organisation has proven it will move the vets out when the prospects prove they've earned the spots, so not sure why anyone other than the Flames accountant has any concerns about this.

Ferland should be taking Bollig's spot you say.............sure when he's ready. I'm loving what we are seeing out of Ferland down this stretch, but Bollig has also stepped up and played better than him. Ferland can have his spot when he takes it. Which hopefully is from game one next year, but let's worry about that when it happens, not make moves in advance of that happening, and lets plan RESPONSIBLY in case it doesn't happen.

Don't understand what fans adversion is to Treliving having to clean up the vet situation on this team when it actually becomes an issue. If he signs some new vets he doesn't need, let him trade them for assets or send them in the minors if he has too. Obviously he has to think about impact to cap space even when demoting a player and make sure he aligns contract lengths accordingly, but otherwise who cares.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be shocked if based on what he saw this year he feels as much need as he did last year to bring in warm bodies to fill in the line up, but all of the players you put above in brackets have not been bucked from their spots this year so why worry about it until it happens. Stajan is still a top 4 centre on this team easily, maybe Bennett finally changes that next year, but right now only Monahan and Backlund are consistently better than him. Bollig is still out performing Ferland for now, Jones hasn't come close to yet being replaced by an AHL player. Raymond has defintetly put himself in the questionable category this year, but it's still not clear that someone from the farm is ready to take his place.

[Huntingwhale]

MayRay has been exactly what I thought he'd be; top 9 player who is streaky and can skate. He also has a wicked shot. One of the best one-timers on the team, but he doesn't get the chance to use it that often.

[Macho0978]

Treviling traded Glencross at the deadline for picks and from what I seen when he was hurt or since he has been dealt...we have not missed him at all

Stajan and Raymond are in the same boat. To many younger players who make less money that have more potential are NHL ready to take their spots. Treviling should do whatever it takes to move both of these guys as they are no longer needed

[heep223]

Stajan has been playing great. Keep him. Great 4th line center for this team.

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

MayRay has been exactly what I thought he'd be; top 9 player who is streaky and can skate. He also has a wicked shot. One of the best one-timers on the team, but he doesn't get the chance to use it that often.

Are you sure? Never seen it in my life.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by heep223

Are you sure? Never seen it in my life.

http://video.flames.nhl.com/videocen...sole?id=743607