Dealership; Used cars

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

On a related note, I bought a new car under the understanding that we were negotiating an all-in price. Then the finance manager explains that it doesn't include the laser etching anti-theft with extra theft insurance.

But hidden charges are what allow him to earn a living and put food on the table!

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Yeah my comment was in reply to his original post where he made them an offer that they accepted

I threw out a figure while shopping. Don't know where I said I made an actual offer on the vehicle. I didn't completely change the story, I left out information in the first post as it was entirely irrelavent to the OP's question, and I didn't feel the need to justify why I didn't buy said vehicle. Giving one reason seemed enough to move the post along.

Price was a factor but not the only one. There were intentions to buy, even at the higher price, however I was on the fence about it. Believe whatever you want, I was the one shopping and know exactly what happened. Not sure why it's such an issue unless you were the salesman in question and had already spent the comission.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

This is probably the worst business practice I've ever heard of.
If a car salesman even suggested this to me I can guarantee I'd walk away that second, because if I was him and someone was dumb enough to put down a deposit before settling on a price, what incentive is there to make a deal? I can stick to my guns on a price and if the guy walks away I keep the deposit, and can still sell the car.

Try making an offer on a house without a deposit.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by pylon

Try making an offer on a house without a deposit.

Every house I've ever bought I've negotiated the price to where I want it before they get any money. I've never heard of it working any other way.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

This is probably the worst business practice I've ever heard of.

If a car salesman even suggested this to me I can guarantee I'd walk away that second, because if I was him and someone was dumb enough to put down a deposit before settling on a price, what incentive is there to make a deal? I can stick to my guns on a price and if the guy walks away I keep the deposit, and can still sell the car.

Thing is, time is money and this ensures you aren't wasting any. A good friend of mine is sales manager at one of the dealers in the auto mall. It ensures you don't waffle for a week and then walk away anyhow, because that car could/would have been sold in the meantime.

[Table 5]

When you're shelling out a good chunk of your yearly salary for a car, the last thing on your mind is the salesman's margins and making sure his time is being fully optimized. While nobody deserves to be screwed around, this is not an impulse by at the grocery store checkout....this stuff is expensive and deserves some reflection.

It reminds me of when I was shopping for engagement rings, and after having been shown a whopping 2 rings in about 3 minutes, the sales guy started pestering me with finance options and how I really need to make this happen so he can feed his kids. That was pretty much the end of my shopping experience at that store. The last thing I need when laying down thousands of dollars is a guilt-trip.

I like salesman who understand that these can be big monetary decisions, and respect that it takes time to make them sometimes. I often go out of my way to buy from sales people that treat me right regardless of a purchase. Those are the guys who won't leave you high and dry as soon as you sign on the dotted line. I tend to know what I want, and don't need to be #####-footed...but I do need to be treated with respect.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Thing is, time is money and this ensures you aren't wasting any. A good friend of mine is sales manager at one of the dealers in the auto mall. It ensures you don't waffle for a week and then walk away anyhow, because that car could/would have been sold in the meantime.

If you haven't signed anything there's nothing stopping the dealer from selling that car right after you walk off the lot. If it's still rotting on their lot for weeks then it says something of the price they are looking at for that car. It's BS to ask for a deposit before talking turkey. It's also not like it's an industry standard or anything, because I certainly haven't made a deposit before haggling for a car. There are other places and other cars to buy out there.

[DementedReality]

ok, i hate the business office guy and the whole entire process of buying a car, ESPECIALLY the part where the sales dood has to negotiate for you with the car manager. if you arent authorized to say yes, then why cant i talk to the person who is?"

anyhow, that said ... if i was a car dealer, it makes sense to also offer all the complimentary products pitched by the Business Office. so what would be a better way to market the value added benefits these products are intended to address?

surely no one disagree's that the car dealer has invested in harvesting all revenue channels, so i shouldnt really bitch about them offering extended warrenty, under coating and such, so why does it feel so shady and what would be a better system to market those products?

[pylon]

Originally Posted by amorak

AMVIC has no criminal code implications.

Not true. I have been called as a witness for a fraud case AMVIC initiated against an individual that defrauded a client of ours, and will be testifying in court. Amvic investigators are all almost exclusively all ex police detectives, and they will spearhead any cases involving fraud. I have sat in on a few hearings with them, and they don't jerk around. There have been numerous back alley dealer employees charged, fined and a coup[le have done time over fair trading act violations and fraudulent acts.

As a whole the reputable dealers are all for AMVIC. We have nothing to hide, and we don't have "hidden charges" as you guys like to throw out there so liberally. Everything the customer is paying is presenting before the deal is signed by the customer and manager. If a customer chooses to buy a warranty, or 3M, loan insurance... or any product I offer, that is done after the final numbers on the car are completed, and there is no-one forcing them to buy those items.

[CKPThunder]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

On a related note, I bought a new car under the understanding that we were negotiating an all-in price. Then the finance manager explains that it doesn't include the laser etching anti-theft with extra theft insurance.

I told him I had plenty of car insurance, and wasn't paying for that, and he could take it off. He said it wasn't optional, since they etched it into the car already. I told him signed papers or no signed papers, I wouldn't be paying that, and if he insisted on it he wouldn't be selling a car.

I don't think that's backing out on my part, since he tried to wrench extra $$ from me after purchase. Total D-bag move, I would say.

This happened to me as well. Negotiated an all-in price and the salesguy even told me like 5 times, "you do not have to pay a penny more" and then the finance guy tries to sneak in a $300 etching charge.

I told him, I wasn't paying and we had a deal for an all-in price and he started going on about the benefits of this security etch (which I found out was done on all of their cars by the manufacturer). I told him that he was being very greasy in trying to get $300 more out of me when we had a set price and he got offended which led to a heated discussion about ethics.

Long story short, I walked out of his office and told my salesguy that I was cancelling the deal and I wanted my deposit back. Next day, I went to another dealer and told them my story and they matched the price and threw in the etching as a freebie.

That finance guy tried to squeeze me for $300 more and ended up losing a $40K deal. I lost a lot of respect for that dealership for hiring a guy like that and I told them so.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by pylon

Try making an offer on a house without a deposit.

Making an offer and hagling are entirely different things.
Plyon said he want's a depsit before haggling, which is silly, as it could lead to this scenario.

Me: Okay here is your $100 now I'd like to discuss the price on this 1983 Sentra.

Plyon: $50,000

Me: I was thinking more like $700

Plyon: fine I'll meet you half way, $25,350, but that's the best I can do.\

Me: No way!

Plyon: Alright then beat it, thanks for the $100 though.

That of course would be the worst plan ever if you wanted repeat business, but it could happen.

That's entirely differnet than making an offer on a house, where you're actually saying "I'd like to pay you $350,000 for this house".

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by pylon

This is why I always advocate having a deposit from a customer before haggling. Money talks, and BS walks... like you did.

I should have left a non refundable deposit before taking the thing out for a test drive!? That's absurd.I've left deposits on vehicles after all was said and done, prices were haggled, and I agreed to buy the car. Not a chance would I leave a deposit before driving the freaking thing, nor would I leave a deposit if the list price was rediculously over valued just to find out if there was room to come down.

[Misterpants]

I'm curious at what point in the transaction does the salesperson ask for a deposit and how much is it usually? When I bought my last car, I don't recall this ever happening.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by pylon

Not true. I have been called as a witness for a fraud case AMVIC initiated against an individual that defrauded a client of ours, and will be testifying in court. Amvic investigators are all almost exclusively all ex police detectives, and they will spearhead any cases involving fraud. I have sat in on a few hearings with them, and they don't jerk around. There have been numerous back alley dealer employees charged, fined and a coup[le have done time over fair trading act violations and fraudulent acts.

As a whole the reputable dealers are all for AMVIC. We have nothing to hide, and we don't have "hidden charges" as you guys like to throw out there so liberally. Everything the customer is paying is presenting before the deal is signed by the customer and manager. If a customer chooses to buy a warranty, or 3M, loan insurance... or any product I offer, that is done after the final numbers on the car are completed, and there is no-one forcing them to buy those items.

I would like to clarify that there can be fees that aren't mentioned as a starting point on negotiation. Often a customer will not know about a 'Documentation fee for $500' or so before throwing around numbers. In this case the salesperson will come to a price with the customer and then add these items on a sales ticket and tell the customer about them then. Yes, technically before it was signed by the customer, but a sales tactic non-the less. Nothing illegal, or even really all that unethical, but kind of greasy.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Misterpants

I'm curious at what point in the transaction does the salesperson ask for a deposit and how much is it usually? When I bought my last car, I don't recall this ever happening.

Every time I've bought a car it wasn't until we shook hands on the price, I signed the papers, and we had time sorted out to pick the thing up.
Basically, not until I'd bought the thing.

[amorak]

I was being tongue in cheek about AMVIC, but hat you said solidifies my point - police laid criminal fraud charges in your case, nothing to do with AMVIC, other than an AMVIC investigation may have unearthed it. It was just a jackass joke on my part

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I would like to clarify that there can be fees that aren't mentioned as a starting point on negotiation. Often a customer will not know about a 'Documentation fee for $500' or so before throwing around numbers. In this case the salesperson will come to a price with the customer and then add these items on a sales ticket and tell the customer about them then. Yes, technically before it was signed by the customer, but a sales tactic non-the less. Nothing illegal, or even really all that unethical, but kind of greasy.

Yeah, that's exactly why every time I've bought a car I've told them up front when we start talking price "I don't care what you guys are getting, I care what I'm spending, so when either one of us says a price, I take that to mean what is coming out of my pocket before I drive this thing away, and if anything gets put on top of that after we shake hands, I'm walking away."

It's worked pretty good for me thus far, and I have walked away from a deal because of it.

[DementedReality]

oh and let me add this one !

the admin charge for doing paperwork. give me a break! every business has paperwork as part of their overhead of getting your hands in my pockets. hell, i have paperwork to do as well to buy the car, so why dont we just contra each other on that and call it a wash. lol

and then they tell you they had to get the car up to standards and show you how much they "spent" in their own shop to fix it up. ya, right! so really, you didnt tell the person you bought it from that it need X amount of upgrades and use that as a reason to knock the price down.

playing it at both ends, i hate feeling like you think i am dumber then you.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by Misterpants

I'm curious at what point in the transaction does the salesperson ask for a deposit and how much is it usually?

Usually around $1000.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Yeah, that's exactly why every time I've bought a car I've told them up front when we start talking price "I don't care what you guys are getting, I care what I'm spending, so when either one of us says a price, I take that to mean what is coming out of my pocket before I drive this thing away, and if anything gets put on top of that after we shake hands, I'm walking away."

It's worked pretty good for me thus far, and I have walked away from a deal because of it.

That's a pretty good idea. Are you talking about GST as well, of just their stupid fees at the end of the deal? I've been poking around looking for a truck lately, and the stupid fees at the end piss me right off. One of the guys I dealt with had a pretty hard time comprehending my insistence on getting ALL THE FEES on one piece of paper. I want a bottom line, mofo. Not some number like $26,500 until I'm sitting with a pen in my hand and suddenly there's $400 deal fee, $2,000 warranty, $1,500 GST, $700 some other crap.

Some car salesmen are total donkeys. Give me the price. All of it. OK, I can figure out the GST myself if need be, but when I see a sticker price on a used vehicls, I expect that that is the price. Stop finding ways to tack on $2,000 afterward.