US Debt Clock

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by pylon

This is what I don't get, everyone is in debt. So lets just say the entire world is in debt. Who exactly is the entire world in debt to? Aliens? You would think there would be someone reaping the benefits of all this money owed.

Start with this:

http://www.getobjects.com/Components.../concepts.html

And then dig into the history books, and look what happened when interest bearing loans weren't allowed for religious and social reasons.

Finally, consider that the world's entire economy, whether you live a democracy, autocracy, communist dicatorship, or whatever, ultimately has a worldwide financial system as its trade underpinning, and nobody can do what you would suggest without first achieving complete anarchy. Because it would take complete anarchy for all of that debt to be wiped off the books. The debt is in most cases not government owned. It is privately owned, but protected by laws which governments create.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Delgar

Start with this:

http://www.getobjects.com/Components.../concepts.html

And then dig into the history books, and look what happened when interest bearing loans weren't allowed for religious and social reasons.

Finally, consider that the world's entire economy, whether you live a democracy, autocracy, communist dicatorship, or whatever, ultimately has a worldwide financial system as its trade underpinning, and nobody can do what you would suggest without first achieving complete anarchy. Because it would take complete anarchy for all of that debt to be wiped off the books. The debt is in most cases not government owned. It is privately owned, but protected by laws which governments create.

Thanks, very informative post. My job only adds to the problem of putting people in more debt. At the end of the day my only task is to get people money, paying it back is between them and the bank. I have never really understood how the global economy truly works. My knowledge of finance starts at ma' and pa' need a new station and ends at "sign here".

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by pylon

Since the entire freakin world then is in debt to itself, why can't the world just agree to forgive the debt to everyone and start from zero again with a more realistic and sustainable tax model to avoid the same thing. I don't get economics.

Ever heard of Tbills or Canada Savings Bonds (hmmm actually the CSB's might not be the true insturment Canada uses, but same principle)? You're lending money to your country when you buy them.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...asury_security

[Locke]

VISA owns the world's balls.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

The entire world is in debt. I think it was $52 trillion or so....

Who are we all in debt too?
The same private cartel who created the Federal Reserve in 1913...

Okay, you're going to have to explain this one.

I've heard some crazy story that the Rockefellers created some goofy rule about debt repayment if the US banking system ever collapsed, but I've never heard the one about the reserve.

Care to to enlighten me?

[yads]

Originally Posted by pylon

This is what I don't get, everyone is in debt. So lets just say the entire world is in debt. Who exactly is the entire world in debt to? Aliens? You would think there would be someone reaping the benefits of all this money owed.

It's typically held by the citizens of the country, sometimes it is held by foreign entities. That's what makes the US debt that much more precarious than even Japan's debt. While it's true that Japan has over twice the amount of debt as GDP, they owe most of that debt to themselves. So the worst thing that could happen is they default on themselves. It's a lot more precarious when a large chunk of your debt is owned by a foreign country.

[squiggs96]

Originally Posted by pylon

Since the entire freakin world then is in debt to itself, why can't the world just agree to forgive the debt to everyone and start from zero again with a more realistic and sustainable tax model to avoid the same thing. I don't get economics.

Why don't we just make every dollar worth a million dollars, and then everyone will be a millionaire?

[macker]

Originally Posted by yads

It's typically held by the citizens of the country, sometimes it is held by foreign entities. That's what makes the US debt that much more precarious than even Japan's debt. While it's true that Japan has over twice the amount of debt as GDP, they owe most of that debt to themselves. So the worst thing that could happen is they default on themselves. It's a lot more precarious when a large chunk of your debt is owned by a foreign country.

Maybe that is why the US is stockpiling Gold and currently are the Saudi Arabia of Gold reserves with 8,000 Tons worth $325 Billion by todays price. By comparison Germany has a little over 3,000 Tons and China claims to have 200 Tons. Guess Greenspan knew what he was talking about in 1966 when he wrote "Gold and Economic Freedom" http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north204.html

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

Why don't we just make every dollar worth a million dollars, and then everyone will be a millionaire?

The Fed thought of that and introduced another round of quantitative easing.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

Okay, you're going to have to explain this one.

I've heard some crazy story that the Rockefellers created some goofy rule about debt repayment if the US banking system ever collapsed, but I've never heard the one about the reserve.

Care to to enlighten me?

the federal reserve is a private corporation that loans money to the us government at interest. every american dollar in circulation has debt attached to it, owed to the federal reserve. because debt is attached to every dollar borrowed, the debt can never be re-paid. Money Masters

with the qe2 recently going thru, and qe3 or qe4 are not too far down the road, the american dollar is becoming worth less and less all the time. the federal reserve is inflating the dollar and it will eventually collapse.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

Why don't we just make every dollar worth a million dollars, and then everyone will be a millionaire?

whats the point of being a millionaire if a loaf of bread will cost $20,000?

[4X4]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

whats the point of being a millionaire if a loaf of bread will cost $20,000?

Didn't you see those pictures in your high school social studies books where german kids were carting wheelbarrows of money around to buy bread in 1921? Didn't that look like fun?

Money fight!!

[yads]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

the federal reserve is a private corporation that loans money to the us government at interest. every american dollar in circulation has debt attached to it, owed to the federal reserve. because debt is attached to every dollar borrowed, the debt can never be re-paid. Money Masters

with the qe2 recently going thru, and qe3 or qe4 are not too far down the road, the american dollar is becoming worth less and less all the time. the federal reserve is inflating the dollar and it will eventually collapse.

The Fed is not a private corporation. It is independent from the government so as to not be swayed by the ruling party. It is still subject to government oversight and the governors are appointed by the president of the US.

Also any profits the Federal Reserve makes are returned into the treasury so in fact the Federal government pays interest to itself on their own securities held by the Federal Reserve.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by yads

The Fed is not a private corporation. It is independent from the government so as to not be swayed by the ruling party. It is still subject to government oversight and the governors are appointed by the president of the US.

Also any profits the Federal Reserve makes are returned into the treasury so in fact the Federal government pays interest to itself on their own securities held by the Federal Reserve.

So where do the Free Mason's and the illuminati and the Joos fit into this?

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by yads

The Fed is not a private corporation. It is independent from the government so as to not be swayed by the ruling party. It is still subject to government oversight and the governors are appointed by the president of the US.

Also any profits the Federal Reserve makes are returned into the treasury so in fact the Federal government pays interest to itself on their own securities held by the Federal Reserve.

so, you're saying that the federal reserve is independent from the government so as to not be swayed by the ruling party, but it's chairman and governors are chosen by the president of the ruling party?

not all profits are returned to the treasury. billions of dollars are kept by the federal reserve. in 2009, the federal reserve made 52.1 billion in profit, but the treasury only received 46.1 billion (the amount made of the u.s. securities it held) what does the federal reserve do with the other 6 billion?

the federal reserve may be subject to government oversight, but unless they can actually audit the fed, oversight is useless!

federal reserve transparency act

audit the fed! - ron paul

audit the federal reserve

[yads]

So if members of the US government appoints the board of governors to the US Federal reserve how does that make it a private corporation?

As for the 6 billion. My guess is it's retained earnings. Out of all of the governmental departments it's one of the few that would need to have cash on hand since it needs to buy and sell securities to maintain its monetary policy.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by yads

So if members of the US government appoints the board of governors to the US Federal reserve how does that make it a private corporation?

As for the 6 billion. My guess is it's retained earnings. Out of all of the governmental departments it's one of the few that would need to have cash on hand since it needs to buy and sell securities to maintain its monetary policy.

very clever...answering a question with another question. thanks for the clarification.

[yads]

Maybe you can provide a clarification on why you think it is. I think the fact that its board of governors is appointed by the President and it being subject to Congressional oversight is a pretty good indicator that it is not a private corporation.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by pylon

Since the entire freakin world then is in debt to itself, why can't the world just agree to forgive the debt to everyone and start from zero again with a more realistic and sustainable tax model to avoid the same thing. I don't get economics.

This is everyones wonder.

I orginally thought all debt had to have a debtor, I saw a show where they showed people buying us bonds, something like $1000 bond for $600.

Then this week the Fed just released a bunch of money, Bernanke said that they were just printing money. I realize that printing money is like playing chicken with those who own your debt but why not just print some more money to get rid of some more debt. If the only issue is currency devaluation then wont that make US exports cheaper? Why not try to play a similar currency game to what Canada once played with a 65 cent dollar.

I am not suggesting printing 14 trillion or whatever the number is but say 1 trillion, and then in a few years time another trillion etc etc. It cant be that large a percentage compared to the total number of us dollars in circulation.

My concern is how much US money do I buy now for vacations later.

I bought 500 this week. I am thinking that might not be enough though. I really wish there was a no fee or low fee US bank account out there. I dont like keeping US cash in my sock drawer next to my passport

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by yads

Maybe you can provide a clarification on why you think it is. I think the fact that its board of governors is appointed by the President and it being subject to Congressional oversight is a pretty good indicator that it is not a private corporation.

what good is congressional oversight, if it can't be audited?

congress: "can we see your books"
federal reserve: "no"
congress: "you control the nation's money supply, we need to know what and how you are operating and controlling the currency"
federal reserve: "no"


transparency of the fed is crucial, whether it is a government entity or not, can we agree on that?