Prostitution laws struck down by Ont. court

[3 Justin 3]

If they legalize it, make it proper like in the Netherlands (well Belgium too, etc.).

They are taxed, and the girls are treated properly, if anything gets out of control all they have to do is hit a button and a light comes on outside the window and bam, there are like 10 guys there to rip the guy off her.

Not to mention most of the proper ones have papers showing they are clean.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

It is legal.

Living off the avails, soliciting, and running a bawdy house (whore house), however, are illegal. Basically, the idea is to make it illegal to be a pimp.

Quite frankly, with the invention of the internet I don't think girls are being forced into dangerous situations anymore. You don't need to hang out on a seedy corner to sell yourself. Put an add up on craigslist.

The people truly at risk are the ones who are forced into desperate situations by drugs, mental health, poor family lifes, etc.... Legalizing pimping will not help these women.

Most of the ads on craigslist are placed by pimps who deliver girls to customers. The method has changed, the issues going on in the background have changed very little.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by valo403

Most of the ads on craigslist are placed by pimps who deliver girls to customers. The method has changed, the issues going on in the background have changed very little.

If this is true, legalizing pimping won't change this.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

If this is true, legalizing pimping won't change this.

Legalizing pimping? Of course not. Legalizing prostitution? Definitely.

Places like Australia and the Netherlands have largely eliminated the issues surrounding pimps by essentially replacing them with the state. There's no need to rely upon street violence for security and enforcement when the state has stepped in and sanctioned the act. Instead of tricks being turned in parking lots and seedy motels they happen in controlled and regulated environments, making the 'transaction' safer for everyone involved. Pimps will still exist to a small degree, there will always be a portion of the sex trade that is based upon drug dependency and exploitation, but for the most part the ability of a pimp to control is removed when they have nothing left to offer. Now whether or not you think replacing a street pimp with someone who runs a place like the bunny ranch is just swapping one for another is a different discussion, but I don't think it's possible to argue that the women at a place like the bunny ranch aren't in a much better position than those walking the streets currently.

[VladtheImpaler]

Well said valo, but you need to edit your last sentence a bit.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't think it's possible to argue that the women at a place like the bunny ranch are in a much better position than those walking the streets currently.

I'll bet the girls at the bunny ranch have it better in every single way over your typical Calgary ho.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I'll bet the girls at the bunny ranch have it better in every single way over your typical Calgary ho.

Yes, that typo was quite difficult to pickup when considered alongside the rest of my post.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by blankall

Living off the avails, soliciting, and running a bawdy house (whore house), however, are illegal. Basically, the idea is to make it illegal to be a pimp.

True but the solicitation and bawdy house provisions also make it illegal to be a prostitute since it's hard to sell something if it's illegal to tell folk that it's for sale and courts have held in the past that a prostitutes apartment can be considered a bawdy house.

It'll be an interesting case to watch. I very much doubt that this won't be appealed but if it survives appeal I'm curious to see the regulartory regime that'll have to go into place. Interesting times.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by valo403

Yes, that typo was quite difficult to pickup when considered alongside the rest of my post.

Don't hate the player; hate the game.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Parallex

True but the solicitation and bawdy house provisions also make it illegal to be a prostitute since it's hard to sell something if it's illegal to tell folk that it's for sale and courts have held in the past that a prostitutes apartment can be considered a bawdy house.

It'll be an interesting case to watch. I very much doubt that this won't be appealed but if it survives appeal I'm curious to see the regulartory regime that'll have to go into place. Interesting times.

Craigslist. Escort Agencies.

That's how it's done now. That's how it will be done if these laws get struck down permanently.

Changing the laws won't stop desperate women addicted to drugs from standing on shady corners.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by valo403

Legalizing pimping? Of course not. Legalizing prostitution? Definitely.

Places like Australia and the Netherlands have largely eliminated the issues surrounding pimps by essentially replacing them with the state. There's no need to rely upon street violence for security and enforcement when the state has stepped in and sanctioned the act. Instead of tricks being turned in parking lots and seedy motels they happen in controlled and regulated environments, making the 'transaction' safer for everyone involved. Pimps will still exist to a small degree, there will always be a portion of the sex trade that is based upon drug dependency and exploitation, but for the most part the ability of a pimp to control is removed when they have nothing left to offer. Now whether or not you think replacing a street pimp with someone who runs a place like the bunny ranch is just swapping one for another is a different discussion, but I don't think it's possible to argue that the women at a place like the bunny ranch aren't in a much better position than those walking the streets currently.

Having a bunny ranch won't necessarily bring the women off the street. The women on the street are often the most desperate ones.

The women who are collected enough to use any services provided by the state are the ones using craigslist.

In addition having bunny ranches might just increase the demand for human traficking. A lot of the women working in places like Amsterdam come from Eastern Europe. Many end up there through human trafficking.

[fredr123]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/sto...g.html?ref=rss

Calgary Police Service say it's business as usual in Calgary and that they'll continue to enforce the prostitution laws as they currently exist in the Criminal Code. I trust the author of the article left out the part about the CPS refraining from laying charges under the relevant sections once the 30 day suspension is up on the declaration granted by the Ontario Courts.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

Having a bunny ranch won't necessarily bring the women off the street. The women on the street are often the most desperate ones.

The women who are collected enough to use any services provided by the state are the ones using craigslist.

In addition having bunny ranches might just increase the demand for human traficking. A lot of the women working in places like Amsterdam come from Eastern Europe. Many end up there through human trafficking.

So you agree with me? Your first paragraph just parrots what I said, there will always be an element of street prostiution regardless of the laws. What you are overlooking is the ability of legalized and controlled forms of prostitution to greatly reduce the amount of typical street prostitution. By moving the majority of the supply into a controlled system you also move the majority of demand. There will be desperate and troubled women working corners, but there will be significantly less customers for them. Removing the element that works corners, and those that frequent them, is a societal issue that has more to do with poverty and substance abuse than it does with prostiution and the associated laws.

I don't know if you just don't want to believe it or what, but the services being provided through craigslist are very often no different than those on the street corner, all that's changed is the mode of contact. There was a series of reports on this on I believe MSNBC over the last few months. Certainly there are a few sole proprietors out there using craigslist, but they aren't in the majority.

As for your last point, it's a legitimate concern, but one that has to do with creating an effective regulatory regime. Legalized prostiution may open up some new issues, but it closes the door rather effectively on a number of existing issues, most of which are linked to much greater criminal enterprises.

[Oil Stain]

Originally Posted by blankall

Having a bunny ranch won't necessarily bring the women off the street. The women on the street are often the most desperate ones.

The women who are collected enough to use any services provided by the state are the ones using craigslist.

In addition having bunny ranches might just increase the demand for human traficking. A lot of the women working in places like Amsterdam come from Eastern Europe. Many end up there through human trafficking.

They already do have bunny ranches. There are like 40 places in the Sun classifieds offering "Adult massage".

[blankall]

Originally Posted by valo403

So you agree with me? Your first paragraph just parrots what I said, there will always be an element of street prostiution regardless of the laws. What you are overlooking is the ability of legalized and controlled forms of prostitution to greatly reduce the amount of typical street prostitution. By moving the majority of the supply into a controlled system you also move the majority of demand. There will be desperate and troubled women working corners, but there will be significantly less customers for them. Removing the element that works corners, and those that frequent them, is a societal issue that has more to do with poverty and substance abuse than it does with prostiution and the associated laws.

I wasn't really agreeing with you at all.

And you're argument about removing women from corners is also BS. Right now women don't have to work corners. They can work at massage parlors, advertise through craigslist. They work corners for other reasons that prostitution laws in themseleves are not capable of addressing.

Men also don't have to go to corners to find women. The kind of men who pick up desperate women, who look like crack whores, on corners are not going to pay for expensive bunny ranch type services.

As for decreasing demand, how do you know it wouldn't just force the women to charge less for their services, making them even more desperate?

Originally Posted by valo403

I don't know if you just don't want to believe it or what, but the services being provided through craigslist are very often no different than those on the street corner, all that's changed is the mode of contact. There was a series of reports on this on I believe MSNBC over the last few months. Certainly there are a few sole proprietors out there using craigslist, but they aren't in the majority.

As for your last point, it's a legitimate concern, but one that has to do with creating an effective regulatory regime. Legalized prostiution may open up some new issues, but it closes the door rather effectively on a number of existing issues, most of which are linked to much greater criminal enterprises.

Nope....doesn't "close the door" on anything. Prostitution is already legal. We are talking about legalizing bunny ranches and pimps. So stop clouding the issue.

Like I said before, it won't help desperate women and all it does do is encourage human trafficking.

[Northendzone]

i am all for making it legal - the only concern I would have is that all of those people working in that industry are somebodies child and would you want your child growing up aspiring to be a trade worker?

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by blankall

Nope....doesn't "close the door" on anything. Prostitution is already legal. We are talking about legalizing bunny ranches and pimps. So stop clouding the issue.

Prostitution is only technically legal. If you can't legally offer to sell your product (Solicitation) or be legally allowed a space to conduct the act of sale (Bawdy House) then it defacto isn't legal.

Anyone want to give any odds on the verdict surviving appeal? Not better then 50-50 IMO.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by blankall

In addition having bunny ranches might just increase the demand for human traficking. A lot of the women working in places like Amsterdam come from Eastern Europe. Many end up there through human trafficking.

Possibly increasing human trafficking....it's an interesting thought. Still, we see it already (twice in Calgary in the past few weeks) and I would argue that having 100% of the business behind closed doors feeds the problem instead of preventing it.

As for some of the other points being made on this topic......I'm not overly impressed with the logic. The one that really bothers me is the notion that we shouldn't legalize prostitution because some women will continue to work on the street anyways. In other words......since a change in the law would only benefit the lives of 90% of prostitutes, it shouldn't be enacted.

At the end of the day there is absolutely zero benefit to keeping the sex trade illegal, it is ENTIRELY negative.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

I wasn't really agreeing with you at all.

And you're argument about removing women from corners is also BS. Right now women don't have to work corners. They can work at massage parlors, advertise through craigslist. They work corners for other reasons that prostitution laws in themseleves are not capable of addressing.

Men also don't have to go to corners to find women. The kind of men who pick up desperate women, who look like crack whores, on corners are not going to pay for expensive bunny ranch type services.

As for decreasing demand, how do you know it wouldn't just force the women to charge less for their services, making them even more desperate?





Nope....doesn't "close the door" on anything. Prostitution is already legal. We are talking about legalizing bunny ranches and pimps. So stop clouding the issue.

Like I said before, it won't help desperate women and all it does do is encourage human trafficking.

We are? Really? Actually we're talking about turning an industry that has always existed into a regulated and controlled industry. I fail to see how doing so runs contrary to anything you've posted. Unless of course you think the fact that you can find hookers on craiglist now means that they aren't still under the control of pimps and that the evils of an underground sex trade don't exist there.

Seriously, how does a controlled, taxed, policed and regulated sex trade not present a step up for the well being of everyone involved? If this is an issue of beuracracy maybe you'd have a point, but that's not what you've argued. Less criminal elements involved in the sex trade? Check. More supervision and regualtion of conditions for workers? Check. Contained legal sites preventing sprawl into residential neighborhoods? Check.

BTW, please read my posts again. There are multiple instances where you've been arguing against a point despite the fact that I said the exact same thing as you. An example being the fact that there are issues involved that prostiution laws are not able to address, apparently you didn't agree with me at all yet you said the same thing I did in the post you quoted.

[CaptainCrunch]

Have you guys seen what those girls charge at the moonlight bunny ranch. Its insane (Of course I only know about this because of what I've seen on T.V.)