Burning the Koran

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I'm suprised no one has addressed this news yet. Apparently some Christian Pastor in Florida is having a good old fashion book burning on Sept 11 with the Koran as the main course. There has already been Muslim protests in Indonesia over the plan. More is expected. The US military has expessed concern that this will be beneficial to their enemies. The City in Florida has refused to grant the church a fire permit but, the Pastor is going ahead with it anyways.

I find this situation to be very simular to the ground zero mosque one. Both actions are offensive to most people and both actions are protected by the constitution. In this case the local government refused to issue a permit in hopes presumably to stop it. In the mosque's case the permits were fast tracked.

What I haven't heard is the left leaning folks that rallied around the mosque doing the same for this little church. No one seems outraged that the permit was withheld. No one is scolding the military for publically expressing opposition to this event.

On a historical note: Christians have been holding book burnings since before there was Islam.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...koran-burning/

Say a Muslim cleric in Florida wants to hold a good ol' fashioned Bible Burning on September 11th. Would you start a thread griping about it if he isn't issued a permit?

If not (and we know you wouldn't) the "I'm just sayin' because it's the Constitution and freedom of religion" angle is transparent.

As for the bit about how long Christians have been burning books -- that may not be a feature of your religion that you want to call attention too. It's not something to brag about.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

If people want to announce their intolerance to the world through inflammatory speech or action (which does not imminently incite lawless action), then they're free to do so and protected by the first amendment to the US constitution.

I believe this was resolved in Brandenburg vs Ohio many moons ago.

Nothing to see here... move along...

I agree but, like the Mosque these people should look beyond their own rights. If we are going to be nieghbors it would be a lot more pleasent if we both demonstrated a little empathy towards each other. If both Christianity and Islam are truely religions of peace you would think that peace would be easy to achieve. I think that some have forgotten that peace requires actions and often sacrifice.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Besides withholding the permit interfers with this churches right to freely practice their religion.

wait... but before in other threads you said that Islam was the one where...

Oh.

AHAHAHAHAHA!

One day, Calgaryborn, your pointy head will puncture a hole in that paper bag you're stuck in because there is no way you're reasoning your way out of it.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

The Nazi's burnt other peoples books they took away by force. This church is burning books they presumably purchased.

LOL.

Whose books they are isn't exactly the issue here.



"Christianity has somewhat mitigated that brutal Germanic love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered, the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame. This talisman is fragile, and the day will come when it will collapse miserably. Then the ancient stony gods will rise from the forgotten debris and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and finally Thor with his giant hammer will jump up and smash the Gothic cathedrals. (...) Do not smile at my advice -- the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder is of true Germanic character; it is not very nimble, but rumbles along ponderously. Yet, it will come and when you hear a crashing such as never before has been heard in the world's history, then you know that the German thunderbolt has fallen at last. At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead, and lions in the remotest deserts of Africa will hide in their royal dens. A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll."

Those are the words of Heinrich Heine, who is also the source of the "where they burn books they will also burn people" quote.

The book the quoted passage comes from was burned, 99 years later, by the Nazis. Hence the ubiquity of the second quote, which "commemorates" the event.

Burning books is one of the most vile acts committed by humanity.

[amorak]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I'm suprised no one has addressed this news yet. Apparently some Christian Pastor in Florida is having a good old fashion book burning on Sept 11 with the Koran as the main course. There has already been Muslim protests in Indonesia over the plan. More is expected. The US military has expessed concern that this will be beneficial to their enemies. The City in Florida has refused to grant the church a fire permit but, the Pastor is going ahead with it anyways.

I find this situation to be very simular to the ground zero mosque one. Both actions are offensive to most people and both actions are protected by the constitution. In this case the local government refused to issue a permit in hopes presumably to stop it. In the mosque's case the permits were fast tracked.

What I haven't heard is the left leaning folks that rallied around the mosque doing the same for this little church. No one seems outraged that the permit was withheld. No one is scolding the military for publically expressing opposition to this event.

On a historical note: Christians have been holding book burnings since before there was Islam.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...koran-burning/

You put a left or right slant on everything and fail to see the obvious. One thing (mosque) is the right thing to do and normal, reasonable people will support it. The other (book burning) is wrong and reasonable people will not support it. I question your ability to view things reasonably if you think this is a left/right issue and not a right/wrong difference.

Also, please move your trailer off the hill on Highway 2 - I have read your message for years, I get it - Less Ottawa.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

If we are going to be nieghbors it would be a lot more pleasent if we both demonstrated a little empathy towards each other.

Now I'm confused.

I thought they were just practicing their religion?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I think that some have forgotten that peace requires actions and often sacrifice.

Like not burning the books.

I think I get your point though. Building the mosque at ground zero is going to anger a lot of people. So, instead of causing a riot in New York and angering a LOT of people, whoever building it should consider sacrificing for the greater good and building somewhere else.

Just like the pastor should just shut the hell up, and not burn the books because all he's doing is putting a lot of Americans around the world at risk.

But, I don't think the situations are comparable. I personally don't believe the mosque is intentionally being built to piss people off. But the books ARE being burned for the sole purpose of pissing off the Islam world.

If the worst thing the US has to worry about is someone paying millions of dollars to build a mosque close to ground zero I'd say they are pretty well off.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

This is an interesting comment. I haven't read every article about this book burning, I was just under the assumption this wasn't exactly a regular occurance at this church. Perhaps if it was something that had been done on a fairly consistent basis I could understand your point a bit better..........but if this is the first time they've planned a Koran book burning I'm not sure exactly how this would stop them from practicing their religion.

They're looking for reaction, and perhaps confrontation. They'll probably get both.

If their church constitution expresses fidelity to scriptures I would think they could argue its merits based on this scripture:

Act 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

I agree that they are looking for a reaction. Do you think this might in part be a reaction to the deaf ear they have recieved from those who are putting up the ground zero mosque?

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by amorak

You put a left or right slant on everything and fail to see the obvious. One thing (mosque) is the right thing to do and normal, reasonable people will support it. The other (book burning) is wrong and reasonable people will not support it. I question your ability to view things reasonably if you think this is a left/right issue and not a right/wrong difference.

Also, please move your trailer off the hill on Highway 2 - I have read your message for years, I get it - Less Ottawa.

While I don't support their message or what they're trying to do in the slightest, I would support their right to do it... if it wasn't a giant fire hazard.

It's not a right/left issue or a right/wrong issue: it's a rights issue.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

What I haven't heard is the left leaning folks that rallied around the mosque doing the same for this little church. No one seems outraged that the permit was withheld. No one is scolding the military for publically expressing opposition to this event.

Why would anyone rally around this little church? Last I heard, the type of people who rally around hatred are the types of people most people don't want to be around. Very few reasonable people would ever support such asshattery. Or tell me, is the Christian church supposed to preach hate?

[CaramonLS]

It's like your post never even happened Photon. He keeps moving right along.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Why would anyone rally around this little church? Last I heard, the type of people who rally around hatred are the types of people most people don't want to be around. Very few reasonable people would ever support such asshattery. Or tell me, is the Christian church supposed to preach hate?

If these d-bags want an audience, they should invite those morons that picket certain funerals while holding signs that announce "God hates f*gs"

At least afterwards they could crack open a few beers together and share like-minded stories.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

If their church constitution expresses fidelity to scriptures I would think they could argue its merits based on this scripture:

Act 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

No one is saying they can't burn the books at all, they're saying they can't make a big bonfire in public. Burn one in a fireplace, video it, and put it on the Interwebs, there they've burned it before all men.

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I agree that they are looking for a reaction. Do you think this might in part be a reaction to the deaf ear they have recieved from those who are putting up the ground zero mosque?

What deaf ear? The group putting up the complex has responded. Heck even the President has responded.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by evman150

LOL.

Whose books they are isn't exactly the issue here.



"Christianity has somewhat mitigated that brutal Germanic love of war, but it could not destroy it. Should that subduing talisman, the cross, be shattered, the frenzied madness of the ancient warriors, that insane Berserk rage of which Nordic bards have spoken and sung so often, will once more burst into flame. This talisman is fragile, and the day will come when it will collapse miserably. Then the ancient stony gods will rise from the forgotten debris and rub the dust of a thousand years from their eyes, and finally Thor with his giant hammer will jump up and smash the Gothic cathedrals. (...) Do not smile at my advice -- the advice of a dreamer who warns you against Kantians, Fichteans, and philosophers of nature. Do not smile at the visionary who anticipates the same revolution in the realm of the visible as has taken place in the spiritual. Thought precedes action as lightning precedes thunder. German thunder is of true Germanic character; it is not very nimble, but rumbles along ponderously. Yet, it will come and when you hear a crashing such as never before has been heard in the world's history, then you know that the German thunderbolt has fallen at last. At that uproar the eagles of the air will drop dead, and lions in the remotest deserts of Africa will hide in their royal dens. A play will be performed in Germany which will make the French Revolution look like an innocent idyll."

Those are the words of Heinrich Heine, who is also the source of the "where they burn books they will also burn people" quote.

The book the quoted passage comes from was burned, 99 years later, by the Nazis. Hence the ubiquity of the second quote, which "commemorates" the event.

Burning books is one of the most vile acts committed by humanity.

In the book of Acts they burnt their own books once they freely converting to Christianity. The books represented their old life and would have been a hinderance to their new faith.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I agree that they are looking for a reaction. Do you think this might in part be a reaction to the deaf ear they have recieved from those who are putting up the ground zero mosque?

You alluded to empathy in an earlier post. Now this comes off as a vicious cycle..........they're upset, so they're going to do something to create a reaction. People upset with the book burning will respond as well, and on and on we go.

Maybe somebody/some group should take the high road instead of making the situation worse?

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by photon

No one is saying they can't burn the books at all, they're saying they can't make a big bonfire in public. Burn one in a fireplace, video it, and put it on the Interwebs, there they've burned it before all men.



What deaf ear? The group putting up the complex has responded. Heck even the President has responded.

Are you refering to the accusations of racism and Islamicphobia? Where was the empathy demonstrated?

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

I think I get your point though. Building the mosque at ground zero is going to anger a lot of people.

Building a mosque several blocks away from Ground Zero is only offensive to those that equate 9/11 with Islam.

The burning of the Koran is insulting and MEANT to be insulting. The building of the mosque is meant as building a community centre for area needing a community centre.

Now maybe if the people in Florida are very cold, desperate for a heating source and the only the available to burn are copies of the Koran, then MAYBE there is SOME justification. But somehow I'm doubting that to be the case.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

In the book of Acts they burnt their own books once they freely converting to Christianity. The books represented their old life and would have been a hinderance to their new faith.

So wait, first you make a case for religious freedom to burn books based on a scripture in Acts, but now you make a case against burning just any books by giving the scripture in Acts more context..

But I think I have it straight now, if the people in this church are all converted Muslims burning their own books that represent their old life then it should be allowed as restricting it would be against their religious freedom. Got it. Anyone know if Terry Jones is a converted Muslim?

No one's stopping them from burning their books that represent their old life.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

You alluded to empathy in an earlier post. Now this comes off as a vicious cycle..........they're upset, so they're going to do something to create a reaction. People upset with the book burning will respond as well, and on and on we go.

Maybe somebody/some group should take the high road instead of making the situation worse?

Yup it is a vicious cycle. The problem of course, is that this church represents about 50 people but, it will be seen as an indictment against every Christian to some. You will never get everyone on that high road at once.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

wait... but before in other threads you said that Islam was the one where...
Oh.
AHAHAHAHAHA!
One day, Calgaryborn, your pointy head will puncture a hole in that paper bag you're stuck in because there is no way you're reasoning your way out of it.

Just a couple of threads ago you accused someone of being a wife beater. Why don't you expand on that since you are calling someone else out about previous posts? Some things you post can follow you around until they are cleared up. Just saying.