Liberals introduce bill to reinstate mandatory long form census

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Wait.....

There are actually people who DON'T think the conservatives absolutely screwed the pooch on this issue?

Well, now I've seen everything. This isn't the first thing Harper has done that I've disagreed with, but it is certainly the first time I've questioned his intelligence and political savvy.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by amorak

I agree with this - Should be mandatory.

Problem is those who disagree with the long census will not be truthful with their answers.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Dion

Problem is those who disagree with the long census will not be truthful with their answers.

If Harper's plan goes forward, I'll bet money someone will start a grassroots campaign encouraging people to spoil the validity of the data of the optional long-form survey.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Who uses the census data about bedroom/bathrooms and for what purposes? I honestly don't know. Maybe Devil's Advocate might have some insight into that.

http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...NAMEE=&VNAMEF=

It's so that we can compare the number of 3 bedroom homes in Toronto vs the number of 3 bedroom homes in rural Saskatchewan. We can also see that in Montreal the average number of bedrooms in the average dwelling is 2.3, but in Calgary it is 2.9. The data is used primarily by realtors, developers and urban planners.

Just go to our website and type "bedrooms" and all the tables we produce will pop up in a listing. The ones that say "HTML" beside them are free tables for the Canadian public. The ones that do not are tables we sell primarily to the private sector as cost recovery.

Hrm. I thought I was a rare bird. Single guy living in a 7 room home. Apparently there are a lot of single people living in large homes. And there are 112,000 single people living in homes of 10 or more rooms.
http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-re...NAMEE=&VNAMEF=

[Hack&Lube]

They should get with the 21st century and put the census online. That ends all this crap with how long the form is.

[Devils'Advocate]

Uhm, did you read the second post in this thread? The census *IS* online and was in 2006. As I was stating before, the web team are having fun trying to keep up with all the changes which is hard since the requirements are changing with each passing day.

Changing the paper form is easy compared to changing the database and capture forms.

So obviously, putting it online has not "ended all this crap about how long the form is".

[mykalberta]

They really want to fight an election over this bs issue? Do they really think that the average person even cares about this issue. What they will care about is the party who introduced a bill that set parliment into motion for an election.

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Are you denying that certain demographics are less likely to respond to an optional survey than a mandatory census? If so, can you provide a link to support you claim despite the fact that everyone who is an expert at surveys and statistics -- including the former head of StatsCan -- says otherwise?

Having had the pleasure of filling out the long form in the 2006 census I can honestly say that it isn't a big deal. I found it to be a bit annoying to answer (a lot) of questions that government already had answers too, but whatever. It was definitely a lesson in government inefficiency......

My only strong objection to the current long-form census......I don't think that threatening a population with fines or jail is the right way to advocate the participation in a democracy.

The little info packet is *very* explicit about "You must do this. Failure can result in fines or jail time". It was pretty aggressive and did nothing but piss me off......making me half-tempted to be a "Billionaire Kangaroo Hunter and Antique Dealer living in a 0 Bedroom 9 Bathroom Cardboard Box".

At the end of the day, I filled in the forms because it was my civic duty. Threats were not needed.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Then that airforce general is a fool. The F-18 airframe is over 30 years old, its time for them to go, combine that with the fact that the F-35 is becoming the defacto nato standard, which means easier integration, and a technology that will let them run for another 30 years.

One needs only to look at the last time the Liberals mucked around in military spending. How much money have we wasted and how many lives have we lost now as a direct result of the Liberals cancelling the Sea King replacement program?

[Resolute 14]

On topic... I am fully in agreement that the long form census should remain mandatory. But the Liberal argument that the Conservatives are doing this to hamstring government's ability to deliver social programs is just about the worst fear-mongering stupidity they have come up with since Chretien was embarrassing this nation.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

On topic... I am fully in agreement that the long form census should remain mandatory. But the Liberal argument that the Conservatives are doing this to hamstring government's ability to deliver social programs is just about the worst fear-mongering stupidity they have come up with since Chretien was embarrassing this nation.

Democracy is what I say it is!!!

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

On topic... I am fully in agreement that the long form census should remain mandatory. But the Liberal argument that the Conservatives are doing this to hamstring government's ability to deliver social programs is just about the worst fear-mongering stupidity they have come up with since Chretien was embarrassing this nation.

I'm just gonna throw this out there.......gotta get it off my chest.

Where the frakk was all this debate, passion and fighting when we were handing out Billions to GM and the like? Where was all the debate and discussion when we agreed to a $50 Billion deficit? They were all too freaking busy talking about Geurgis freaking out in an airport, or Ruby Dahla being a bitch.

The Liberals (whom I don't really care for) have been spoiling for a fight with the Conservatives (whom I don't really care for) since Ignatieff was crowned 'Prince of the Party', but have avoided every significant issue the country has faced (save for occasional soundbites), and jumped on every minor topic that has come available.

Seriously folks, these people are not interested in helping you. They're interested in appearing competent so that they keep their cushy jobs. The idea that anyone would vehemently support either of these parties is (imo) laughable. Seeing people drawing battlelines and defending either of these parties is ######ed.

/rant

(thanks all)

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

Wait.....

There are actually people who DON'T think the conservatives absolutely screwed the pooch on this issue?

Well, now I've seen everything. This isn't the first thing Harper has done that I've disagreed with, but it is certainly the first time I've questioned his intelligence and political savvy.

If he can force an election out of the issue with the Liberals causing it instead of the Conservatives I dont see how its politically un-savvy.

Who other than the ~.5% of people who actually profit from this census care about this issue?

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Who other than the ~.5% of people who actually profit from this census care very much about this issue?

Kind of fyp.

I think most people "Sort of" care. But as you eluded to, only a tiny group of people really see this as a big deal. This is certainly NOT an election issue.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

I'm just gonna throw this out there.......gotta get it off my chest.

Where the frakk was all this debate, passion and fighting when we were handing out Billions to GM and the like? Where was all the debate and discussion when we agreed to a $50 Billion deficit? They were all too freaking busy talking about Geurgis freaking out in an airport, or Ruby Dahla being a bitch.

The Liberals (whom I don't really care for) have been spoiling for a fight with the Conservatives (whom I don't really care for) since Ignatieff was crowned 'Prince of the Party', but have avoided every significant issue the country has faced (save for occasional soundbites), and jumped on every minor topic that has come available.

Seriously folks, these people are not interested in helping you. They're interested in appearing competent so that they keep their cushy jobs. The idea that anyone would vehemently support either of these parties is (imo) laughable. Seeing people drawing battlelines and defending either of these parties is ######ed.

/rant

(thanks all)

I think that this is the throw of the dice for the Liberal's. Ignatief did his summer tour and got no traction whatsoever, at the same time he's being continually stabbed in the back by Bob Rae and Jean Chretien.

If Ignatief can push this to an election, he will lose right now, but it gives him the graceful exit to return to academia while at the same time flipping the middle finger to detractors in his party.

But your right, this is an issue that you don't want to use to force an election.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

Kind of fyp.

I think most people "Sort of" care. But as you eluded to, only a tiny group of people really see this as a big deal. This is certainly NOT an election issue.

It will be when the Conservatives vote against it and lose confidence in the House.

I dont see the Canada hating bloc voting against it or the NDP.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

Kind of fyp.

I think most people "Sort of" care. But as you eluded to, only a tiny group of people really see this as a big deal. This is certainly NOT an election issue.

Here's something most people don't understand about politics. Politics functions according to "narratives" that get constructed around certain public figures in the media--and once a "narrative" is built it's very difficult to change it. Look at the 2008 election, where no matter what John McCain did he was portrayed as "old and out of touch," and the "data-rich" aspects of the stories that he was trying to get out there didn't matter at all.

What this means in practice is that Harper needs to avoid doing things that reinforce an existing negative narrative about him. It doesn't actually matter "how much" people care (though actually, polls show that quite a few people care a lot) about the census issue. What matters is that Harper's handling of the census issue reinforces an existing negative narrative about him wherein he is intractable and autocratic, and has a tendency to overstep his mandate.

What this means is that even people who don't care a whole lot about the census issue per se, feel negatively disposed toward to Harper because of it. And when the election comes around, some of them won't remember why, but many of them will still feel that negative emotional response toward him.

Make no mistake: this is a huge political blunder from a person who until now has been a very savvy operator. I guess it was only a matter of time before he screwed up, but I'm surprised he did it over this kind of issue. He'd have been better off leaving it alone, and I'm surprised he didn't understand that. He's usually smarter.

[mykalberta]

I guess I dont see this as one of those issues. All he needs is 5% of the people who vote to change their vote to get a majority. I dont see anyone who voted Conservative to vote against him because of it. The only blunder IMO was underestimating how many government jobs and media jobs are related to this census (media in particular).

I equate long form census to ER doctors supporting the gun registry. Both have a much bigger bang than buck politically and can be very easily managed.

I see it as a classic politcal game of chicken. The Liberals see the poll numbers and sense weakness and so they try to embarass the government in a way they know the media will get all over (because the media loves reporting useless facts and figures garnered from this census). I personally hope the government makes this a confidence motion which will force either one of the opposition parties to capitulate or will force an election.

[Ducay]

That's exactly what it is. Its a political non-issue being turned into hooplah for political reasons (as with everything).


I don't particularily care either way (mandatory vs. not), but if some value comes out of the mandatory long-form, then just stick with it. However, this is hardly the hot button issue its being made out to be.

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Useless fighter jets?? Last I checked our stuff is pretty well at the end of its life. Leave it to the liberals to have our soldiers so under equipped they pay for it in blood. Our boys the liberals sent into Afghanistan didnt have helicopters to transport supplies. The majority of our losses are by roadside bombs. You do the math.

Not to mention the Iltis jeeps with their awesome canvas armour protection that were first sent over. How many lives did that cost?

I am not a fan of the sole sourcing of the F-35, but there is absolutely no doubt the CF18's are about finished and need to be replaced in the near future.