The Pope is not above the Law.

[Kipper is King]

I am a Catholic, and I am disgusted by what has occurred. That's why I am careful in reminding myself the institution of the church is a separate thing from my own personal beliefs.

Human beings are not perfect. Religions are comprised of human beings. Therefore, they are not perfect.

I think anyone who still subscribes to the old-style belief that the Pope is "infallible" may finally get a big wake-up call that it's not the case.

[habernac]

Get out of the dark ages and let the priests marry so they have an outlet for their urges.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by habernac

Get out of the dark ages and let the priests marry so they have an outlet for their urges.

I don't agree with this, not the marrying part. but the whole it will get rid of the urges part.

A pedophille is a pedophille whether they're married or not. it just seems like the priesthood attracts people with that really gross illness. Just because a ped is married and getting laid every night doesn't mean that he loses his desire to do young kids.

I think the proper answer is a stronger system of background checks and testing by professionals before you can be accepted into the priesthood.

[habernac]

Captain, I agree with you for the most part, but I think at least some turn to the kids because they don't think there's another choice.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Of course, why would the pope be above the law.

What laws has the pope broken?

If he was aware of the abuse and concealed it aiding and abetting springs to mind. If he knew it was ongoing at the new churches a claim for accomplice liability could even be possible. This is assuming that the German laws are relatively similar to those in North America, which I'd expect to be the case.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by habernac

Captain, I agree with you for the most part, but I think at least some turn to the kids because they don't think there's another choice.

To me and I'm not trying to be argumentative (even though I always am), if they had natural urges (bad choice of words I know) there would be a lot more hooker priest scandals, or priest woman scandals. In the day and age of sexual liberation through things like the internet and publications I never buy that they think there are no other choices.

Whether they believe that fleeing to the cloth will help them control their urges (Pedophilia) or they believe that going to the cloth will give them better access to their desires, or even worse that god and the church will forgive them and absolve them of their actions, I think that priesthood holds a powerfull attraction for predatory pedophiles.

I don't think allow priests to marry will ever curb that, sex drive is about more then just relief, if that was true we wouldn't need woman. We're driven to what attracts us the most.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by valo403

If he was aware of the abuse and concealed it aiding and abetting springs to mind. If he knew it was ongoing at the new churches a claim for accomplice liability could even be possible. This is assuming that the German laws are relatively similar to those in North America, which I'd expect to be the case.

I believe the Economist mentioned in its article that in Germany any prosecutions would be barred by the statute of limitations at this point...

[Regulator75]

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by valo403

If he was aware of the abuse and concealed it aiding and abetting springs to mind. If he knew it was ongoing at the new churches a claim for accomplice liability could even be possible. This is assuming that the German laws are relatively similar to those in North America, which I'd expect to be the case.

To me, if Nixon can be bought down so can god's representative on earth. However since the Pope is considered to be the head of state of a highly recognized nation he would be afforded the same diplomatic considerations as any other legitimate head of state.

Plus as an elected official in Germany would you want to be the one to sign the arrest warrant or a German pope?

[habernac]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

To me and I'm not trying to be argumentative (even though I always am), if they had natural urges (bad choice of words I know) there would be a lot more hooker priest scandals, or priest woman scandals. In the day and age of sexual liberation through things like the internet and publications I never buy that they think there are no other choices.

Whether they believe that fleeing to the cloth will help them control their urges (Pedophilia) or they believe that going to the cloth will give them better access to their desires, or even worse that god and the church will forgive them and absolve them of their actions, I think that priesthood holds a powerfull attraction for predatory pedophiles.

I don't think allow priests to marry will ever curb that, sex drive is about more then just relief, if that was true we wouldn't need woman. We're driven to what attracts us the most.

Great points, Captain. But I would be curious to know if there's a big problem with this in churches that allow their priests to marry.

[Ford Prefect]

That asshat Fred Bishop had the gall to accuse the media of engaging in a "seemingly relentless media campaign about child sexual abuse in the Church". He makes it sound like the media is manufacturing everything and that the media is to blame. He made that honey of a statement in an article in yesterday's Calgary Herald editorial pages in which he was defending the Church and the Pope.

Tell that to my two childhood friends who were molested by two different pedophile priests. They eventually testified against them as adults and put the monsters in jail, but I doubt they find much solace in that.

Or tell that to the teenage girls that the priests boink at Church camps every summer. Or what about the parents of the little girl who drowned at a Church camp because the priests were too busy drinking vodka and boinking teenage girls to properly chaperone the younger kids, one of whom wondered off, got lost, and drowned in the lake.

If the Vatican holds the keys to heaven/salvation/redemption or whatever snake oil they're pedaling, I'l take my chances elsewhere.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by habernac

Great points, Captain. But I would be curious to know if there's a big problem with this in churches that allow their priests to marry.

Greek Othodox priests can marry and they've had scandals as well.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Greek Othodox priests can marry and they've had scandals as well.

There is scandals all over, no group is really free of them. The Catholic situation is a little different, however, because, when one instance comes up at one local church, it gets tied to the whole organization. Meanwhile, all the instances of similar garbage happening at some independent small congregation somewhere never get into the widespread media.

I don't think that the percentages are much different in any group, it's just the way media works, and the nature of having a large organization. When something happens in a large organization, everyone knows about it, so it seems more widespread than it is, and the smaller organizations don't get coverage, so it seems less widespread in the smaller groups than it really is.

Of course, if the Pope was covering up something and reposting these guys, that is really bad.

As a Christian (not a catholic), I will say that these things are horrible. There needs to be (much) better checks in place. I think that Priests should be allowed to marry, as it would help (not totally solve) some issues like this one and ones related. However, every church is still a organization made up of humans, so, there are going to be failings from time to time. That only reflects the nature of humans though, not the nature of the church. The church's response to it is what reflects the nature of the church.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Thor

lol New Atheists is a tag given by the religious, nothing is new about atheism its just now we live in a society where that ideal can freely be spoken about without fear of losing your job, your life.

The internet has become the biggest factor in the recent rise of the secular movement, yet there will always be apologetics who think we should find common ground and reasons to co-operate with those who are religious.

Reality shows us something different however.

The only reason he calls them new is because they all released books at approximately the same time. You didn't read the article... did you? Dalrymple, himself, is an unbeliever and a "skeptic."

[GreenTeaFrapp]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

There is scandals all over, no group is really free of them. The Catholic situation is a little different, however, because, when one instance comes up at one local church, it gets tied to the whole organization. Meanwhile, all the instances of similar garbage happening at some independent small congregation somewhere never get into the widespread media.

That's because I doubt some independent small congregation would be able to routinely deal with problem priests by relocating them to new churches with unsuspecting alter boys.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

There is scandals all over, no group is really free of them. The Catholic situation is a little different, however, because, when one instance comes up at one local church, it gets tied to the whole organization. Meanwhile, all the instances of similar garbage happening at some independent small congregation somewhere never get into the widespread media.

I don't think that the percentages are much different in any group, it's just the way media works, and the nature of having a large organization. When something happens in a large organization, everyone knows about it, so it seems more widespread than it is, and the smaller organizations don't get coverage, so it seems less widespread in the smaller groups than it really is.

To me the problem isn't the percentage of Catholic priests involved vs. any other group -it's how the Catholic church responds to sex abuse. If they'd actively take steps to prevent sex abuse and cooperate with bringing those responsible to justice, they wouldn't be in this mess. Instead they try to cover it up and protect the perpetrators, and put known offenders back in contact with the public.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

To me the problem isn't the percentage of Catholic priests involved vs. any other group -it's how the Catholic church responds to sex abuse. If they'd actively take steps to prevent sex abuse and cooperate with bringing those responsible to justice, they wouldn't be in this mess. Instead they try to cover it up and protect the perpetrators, and put known offenders back in contact with the public.

Bingo

We see a lot of abuse in the public and private school systems, however it doesn't seem like they're is any protection for the offenders by the School system itself or by their union. We mostly hear about these creeps being bought before the court and punished.

We don't hear that as much with the Churches because they've always tried to handle things (badly) internally

I think that the attempted coverups creates a feel that its an institutionally accepted practice (which its not) and that they're protecting what we feel morally is a suspect from prosecution for the worst possible crime.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

To me the problem isn't the percentage of Catholic priests involved vs. any other group -it's how the Catholic church responds to sex abuse. If they'd actively take steps to prevent sex abuse and cooperate with bringing those responsible to justice, they wouldn't be in this mess. Instead they try to cover it up and protect the perpetrators, and put known offenders back in contact with the public.

Absolutely, that is an issue. But my point is that it happens outside the Catholics as well, and no one ever hears about it. I'm sure the reverse is also true, that there are times when the Catholic church has handled it well.

[sclitheroe]

If one is to believe the studies cited over at Wikipedia, 15 to 25 % of women and 5 to 15% of men are sexually abused in some degree/capacity as children.

So while a part of me, as a Catholic, feels it is unfair to single out the church, which clearly does not represent 25% of the human demographic, if focusing on the Catholic situation brings more attention, concern, and desire for change to eliminate all sexual abuse from the world's population, I'm OK with that. It's a cross that the Church can bear on behalf of all people and show the way. Hopefully they rise to the challenge and the calling to do this. It has to occur at all levels - the Church is made up of the faithful, and to lay all blame at the feet of the officers of the Church is shortsighted. The sick individuals in the clergy are drawn from the community of faithful, we didn't import them from somewhere else. This is not to diminish the need for sweeping changes in Church policy and leadership that shelter and hide abuse, but to make sure we recognize that every Roman Catholic has a responsibility to, in some part, effect positive change in this regard.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by SebC

Apathy FTW!

Activism is a way to bring change. Seems a strange thing to dislike. Unless you like the world exactly the way it is, but then it's full of activists. It would be even stranger to oppose activism. You'd have to be careful not to oppose it too strongly, lest your actions turn into a campaign. "Down with activism!"

What change? The future is completely unpredictable. The problem with activists is that the majority of them are absolute utopians with no real grip on the complexity of humanity.