Yeah, so like I said, their purpose is to use violence against the government in defiance of law. It's a "solution" to government tyranny by enabling all kinds of petty tyrants - for example, the leader of these Hutarees.
Both the German Communists and the Nazis HAD militias, and the Nazis used their Brownshirts to help them get into power. Which is an argument *against* militias, not for them as you seem to think.
Mikey's been down this road before.
His argument is that if there had been a Jewish militia in Germany, Poland and throughout Europe, then the Holocaust would never have happened!
If you're going to use a sword, then use a sword. If you're going to follow some religious scripture, then follow it. Kinda lame to just interpret an old book to make it fit your perception of what you think it is/should be today.
I agree, but that's quite a can of worms.
What I have to scratch my head about is that these adults, and I'm sure there are thousands of them, genuinely believe that it some point in the near future there is going to be a fight between the Creator of the Universe and The Prince of Darkness, and we are all going to have front-row seats.
A supernatural battle taking place right in front of us, and the real kicker is, these guys think they are going to take part.
Now I can understand belief, going to church, expecting an afterlife and all that and I'm not even questioning the existence of god, but this end times stuff is just lunacy. It's like preparing, seriously preparing and altering your life in doing so, for an impending fight between the Hulk and Spiderman. That's just as rational.
This stuff just does not happen people. Cripes. Snap out of it.
And even if it did, a little common sense tells me that the the god who created the sun (billions of times) probably doesn't need a hand from a bunch of loons with guns.
The Nazi example is fine and dandy, but the problem with the brown shirts is that they were loyal to Hitler.
Many militias in the US say they are loyal to the Constitution and the Citizens of the country.
It's called the Constitutionalist Militia Movement.
I feel as this is a great idea. What's more important in a free country than the constitution? Citizens upholding this and holding government accountable to this is important.
Edit:
Also, i'm only supporting the constitutionalist movement. I do not support religious fundamental Militias or Militias of other backgrounds.
But I don't think you can say some militias are OK and others are not, however these people were arrested because they were planning on killing someone. There is a difference between practicing your right to assemble and bear arms, and planning murder.
If they just sit in their bunkers by themselves with their guns and don't plan to kill anyone until the rapture comes, go for it.
Last edited by worth; 03-30-2010 at 07:14 PM.
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Yeah, so like I said, their purpose is to use violence against the government in defiance of law. It's a "solution" to government tyranny by enabling all kinds of petty tyrants - for example, the leader of these Hutarees.
...the Hutarees, like I said are the "outcast" militia because of their war mongering. They are the exception to the rule.
I'm not sure I understand what you meant by:
"their purpose is to use violence against the government in defiance of law."
The idea of the militia is to protect the citizens in case the government violates the law......or the constitution.
We don't hear much on the radio/TV about militias often. Why?
...Because they are typically non-violent.
Thanks for the little history lesson. Seriously, I forgot about that high school stuff.....but I was just using WW2 Germany as an example.
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Originally Posted by worth
The Nazi example is fine and dandy, but the problem with the brown shirts is that they were loyal to Hitler.
My point is that because militias do not hold themselves accountable to the law, they are power bases not only for "patriots" but for any demagogue with a cause. There are many examples of militias overthrowing or helping to overthrow a government and imposing dictatorship or worse - there are very few of them resisting tyranny successfully.
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Originally Posted by worth
Many militias in the US say they are loyal to the Constitution and the Citizens of the country.
They can say whatever they want - yet if the government constitutionally passed an amendment overturning the right to bear arms, I doubt their "loyalty to the Constitution" would mean much. It would be more accurate to say that they are loyal to their VISION of the Constitution, which is not the same thing at all.
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Originally Posted by worth
I feel as this is a great idea. What's more important in a free country than the constitution? Citizens upholding this and holding government accountable to this is important.
How exactly does toting around a gun and running an organization along military lines uphold the Constitution and make the government accountable? Do you think Obama quakes in his boots at the thought some guys holed up on a ranch in Montana might dislike his choices to the Supreme Court, or his health care bill? The whole movement is asinine, they would far better spend their time and money agitating for states' rights if they want to really curtail federal power.
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How the hell would the government 'constitutionally' pass an amendment overturning the right to bear arms?
The Supreme Court would throw that crap out faster than they would a mandate forcing people to buy insurance.
I see what you did there.
And the government can pass an amendment to overturn the right to bear arms if there's enough support. Pretty sure I remember some prohibition amendment getting canceled out with another amendment...
And the government can pass an amendment to overturn the right to bear arms if there's enough support. Pretty sure I remember some prohibition amendment getting canceled out with another amendment...
I doubt that you'd ever see anywhere near enough support to overturn the right to bear arms.
Once that kind of vote hits southern congressmen and senators and judges it will be squashed faster then I was when I dated that thousand pound woman last week.
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I doubt that you'd ever see anywhere near enough support to overturn the right to bear arms.
Once that kind of vote hits southern congressmen and senators and judges it will be squashed faster then I was when I dated that thousand pound woman last week.
Not saying it's bound to happen, but it is an option in theory.
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Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
I doubt that you'd ever see anywhere near enough support to overturn the right to bear arms.
Oh, I doubt it'll happen in our lifetimes either. But my point is that "the Constitution" is NOT what these militias want to protect, they are interested in preserving their right to bear arms as their main focus, with some bs about the religious roots of American freedom as a usual side issue.
Have you ever heard of a militia marching in support of the 14th Amendment and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 based on that amendment? How about the 16th Amendment making it legal to exact income tax? Or if you want to refer to the original document, how about Article IV Section 4, where the federal government is empowered to (among other things) protect the various states from "domestic violence" - ie, armed insurrection. Do any of these seem likely rallying points, and if not, why not - after all, they want to "protect the Constitution", not just the parts they approve of, as that would be hypocrisy, wouldn't it?
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Originally Posted by Azure
How the hell would the government 'constitutionally' pass an amendment overturning the right to bear arms?
The Supreme Court would throw that crap out faster than they would a mandate forcing people to buy insurance.
I don't think you understand what the Supreme Court does - if the Constitution is amended legally, they have no say in whether or not the new law applies, they are only empowered to interpret and clarify it. For example, the amendment that enforced Prohibition of alcohol was overturned by a later amendment; overturning the 2nd could be done in exactly the same manner and the Supreme Court could do nothing.
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The group says on its Web site that Hutaree means "Christian warrior" and describes the word as part of a secret language that few are privileged to know. The group quotes several Bible passages and states: "We believe that one day, as prophecy says, there will be an Anti-Christ. ... Jesus wanted us to be ready to defend ourselves using the sword and stay alive using equipment."
...the Hutaree view local, state, and federal law enforcement personnel as a "brotherhood" and an enemy, and planned to attack them as part of an armed struggle against the U.S. government.
...states on its Web site to be "prepared to defend all those who belong to Christ and save those who aren't."
Not saying it's bound to happen, but it is an option in theory.
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Originally Posted by jammies
I don't think you understand what the Supreme Court does - if the Constitution is amended legally, they have no say in whether or not the new law applies, they are only empowered to interpret and clarify it. For example, the amendment that enforced Prohibition of alcohol was overturned by a later amendment; overturning the 2nd could be done in exactly the same manner and the Supreme Court could do nothing.
Sure, its an option. Also an option to nuke China.
Right now I don't know which would be worse for the US.
Hell, here in Canada our politicians get a backlash when they implemented their stupid gun registry program.
