Progress...

[Hakan]

I'm not arguing that the life expectancy hasn't gone up since the beginning of the industrial revolution until now.

Pre industrial revolution is another matter.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by Hakan+Feb 20 2005, 08:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hakan @ Feb 20 2005, 08:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mike F@Feb 19 2005, 09:30 PM
The sheer number of medical advances made even in just the last 300 years make this a no-brainer.

People (for the most part) are much, much healthier and living much longer.

Wrong.

That's a commonly held myth that people live longer now then they did 300 years ago. Before the industrial revolution and the emergence of city living people lived longer than we do because of that lack of toxicants in their diet, far less stress in their lives and, get this, because they didn't compulsively bathe.

You can go back and check parish records of baptisms and deaths. Some russian peasants used to live until they were over 150.

I remember reading a paper on this a while back I'll try to find a link. [/b][/quote]
Tell me more about compulsive bathing. The rest makes sense as I have read stories about farmers living very long lives with a simple diet.

[Hakan]

The argument was quite intuitive. Basically, only until recently have we began bathing regularly. Before that time, peasants would bathe once or twice a month. On their skin, they would develop a protective 'dirty' coating. This coating prevented scratches and scrapes but was also a living system on your skin. Bacterial organisms living on your skin protected your body from different particulates and other harmful bacterias/diseases. The effect on the immune system was also very beneficial as it allowed the system to focus on serious conditions in the body instead of spreading itself too thin combating all the minor infections on your skin etc.

[Mike F]

Originally posted by Hakan@Feb 20 2005, 07:30 PM
I'm not arguing that the life expectancy hasn't gone up since the beginning of the industrial revolution until now.

Pre industrial revolution is another matter.

I still don't buy it, and it's still contrary to everything I've read.

Some admittedly quick research:

From UofW Class lecture notes:
Pre-Industrial Revolution
· Life expectancy was low (between 20 and 30 years old).
· High infant mortality and child mortality: only two thirds
survived to age 1 and one half still alive by age 5

Somewhere else
"In Western Europe, in the preindustrial Middle Ages, man's life expectancy was 30 years. In the nineteenth century, Europe's population grew by 300 percent — which is the best proof of the fact that for the first time in human history, industry gave the great masses of people a chance to survive."

They're not the best sources, but I don't feel like looking any more.

The ball's in your court to refute them

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Mike F@Feb 20 2005, 11:36 AM
Well, the original question was, "has society made progress", not are we happier.

I guess it depends on how you define 'progress'. Shouldn't progress be something that makes your life fuller, better, richer? A indication of that might be happiness.

I guess I just need to be more specific in the future.

I just meant you can have the longest, healthiest, life in the world but simply living longer isn't really an example of progress. Nor is eating better. I remember seeing a documentary about a family in Africa that didn't get to eat every day, and on days they didn't get to eat they would do a dance and sing a song (almost like a little prayer) thanking the powers that be for life and that they knew that they would be able to eat the next day. Seemed pretty happy and fulfilled to me.

Not saying we should take food for granted or allow people to go hungry, just that I find it hard to define progress by a lot of these material or technological advancements, even if they have to do with health of food. There are people who change the world with a few acts and others that live a long life full of selfishness.

I like what you are saying about not knowing what you don't have. That's kinda what I'm getting at. Maybe a simple life is better? Progress in terms of our technocratic and ecomonically driven society seems pretty hollow.

Of course, as you mentioned, it's not like many of us could go back, having gotten used to the way things are now.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Really tough to say, but I would say no, not really. I'll try and summarize my thoughts...

Our advances in technology have made our lives more stressful and hectic than before. More demanding and longer schooling is needed to meet the demands of this new technology. These advances in technology are still only experienced by a minority of the world's population as well, despite the fact some of our healthcare advances materialize in the form of 1 dollar a year vaccinations that many people can't afford. Gap between the rich and the poor is widening. A great example of this, how many wealthy people would rather spend tons of money on expensive cars, clothes, etc, instead of maybe helping out these people that can't afford 1 dollar a year vaccinations, says alot about society to me (sounds extremely socialist, but i'm not going into much detail here mind you). Heck, even the CBA situation in hockey right now is another good example!

We still have brutal dictatorships around the world. Democracy, in all it's wonderous glory, seems somewhat lacking in my eyes when I see how a majority government can be elected in Canada with 30 some percent of the vote, how the PM can do whatever he wants and how the government can get away with so much waste and scandal and have hardly anything happen. Locke was right when he said people as a whole will put up with alot before they do anything about it. Not to mention the great and powerful democracy south of us, led by you-know-who, wreaking the most havoc on the world at the moment.

We still fight and kill eachother over the same reasons as we have for hundreds of years. Killing made easier by advances in military technology. We still discriminate against people. We're still racist, prejudice, sexist, anything that's bad with an 'ist' on the end, you name it! We pollute more, we waste more, we're still greedy and selfish.

Yeesh, I only had a couple things in mind when I started replying. Most of this crap I just thought up now as I was typing. Anyways, these are some of the things I see going on in the world that lead me to believe we haven't made much progress when it comes to society. Just my opinion though... i'll try to have a good evening, heheh...

[FlamesAllTheWay]

There's another way to look at progress too.

Somewhat fitting i'd be posting this from a computer on an internet forum ...

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by FlamesAllTheWay@Feb 21 2005, 10:47 PM


There's another way to look at progress too...

I saw this show about this African tribe of hunter gatherers who had been converted to farming. They only had to work two or three hours a day as hunter gatherers but now as farmers they had to work all day.