Healthcare in the United States...

[Rutuu]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

I wish I had the statistics that state what percentage of my health care costs go to indigents, illegal immigrants etc. who go to the hospital and are not refused care even though they will never pay. Then I have other people tell me that they were refused major surgery or emergency room care because they could not pay in advance. I don't know why it's so tough to find out the truth about that. The discussions get so heated and yes there is so much irrationality about the subject. I think some hospitals are required to take in a certain number of indigents but I'm not sure.

Not to rag on you specifically, but the fact that you even care about this shows that your system needs reform in the way of a public option.

It's not like you're inventing the wheel down there either...the US is the only developed country without a public option for healthcare.

I think it will be good for your country too...I mean Food/Shelter/Health are all pretty major, when you stop having to worry about one of them your life will instantly improve. I mean personally I fear having my teeth knocked out more than I do a broken leg, because in one instance I have to deal with a for-profit insurance company that DOES NOT have my best interests in mind and in the other case I don't.

Last but not least...I think this is one issue in the states that is going through no matter what...and if you were one of the people opposed you are going to be quite embarrassed you weren't onboard when you see the result.

Look at the NHL salary cap as a loose analogy...there were people opposed to that limiting of that "FREE MARKET" too...

Anyway my 2cents on the issue.

[Shazam]

Eh? The USA has public health care. For ages now. Just not universal health care.

[missdpuck]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

Not to rag on you specifically, but the fact that you even care about this shows that your system needs reform in the way of a public option.

It's not like you're inventing the wheel down there either...the US is the only developed country without a public option for healthcare.

I think it will be good for your country too...I mean Food/Shelter/Health are all pretty major, when you stop having to worry about one of them your life will instantly improve. I mean personally I fear having my teeth knocked out more than I do a broken leg, because in one instance I have to deal with a for-profit insurance company that DOES NOT have my best interests in mind and in the other case I don't.

Last but not least...I think this is one issue in the states that is going through no matter what...and if you were one of the people opposed you are going to be quite embarrassed you weren't onboard when you see the result.

Look at the NHL salary cap as a loose analogy...there were people opposed to that limiting of that "FREE MARKET" too...

Anyway my 2cents on the issue.

Whenever a discussion about our healthcare is brought up , the first thing mentioned is usually "How come the Guatemalan with 5 kids takes his kids to the emergency room when they have a cold, clogs up the system and doesn't have to pay". Well it's kinda because , like it or not, he's working with the choices the present system gives him. Without getting into a discussion about immigrants I'll just say it sours public opinion against them. And I hear it alot because Lake Worth is full of them. I don't have a link but IIRC the workers we pay $6 hr or whatever to do work "Americans will not do" actually cost $25 hr or more.
As far as I can see these are hard working people from a cuture where it's common to start large fanilies at a young age. Instead of blaming/hating them we need to find a way to work with this. I don't know if you have the same immigrant/indigent issue in Canada. Perhaps under your system you can't. LIke most Americans I don't understand your system .
I;m sure it's human nature but it seems so "American" to hate something/throw it under the bus than to try to understand and work with it. And no I'm not saying this is the only place with that attitude. It just seems to come up particularly with healthcare.


And about knocked out teeth...I've been battling that issue since I was a teenager. (Pond hockey) I can't tell you how much it's cost to replace caps, bridgework etc over the years , and I'm currently saving to do it again. So yeah watch your teeth!!

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Honestly, how many people in the US are qualified to and know how to write a health care bill that significantly reforms (and improves) the health care? 10? 20? 50?

Whatever the number, I bet it is pretty small. What are the chances ONE of these people can and will keep their distance from the health care lobbyists and write the bill without someone else leading his hand? Pretty damn near zero I am afraid.

Believing that Obama can somehow cut the ties with health care industry is unbelieveably naive. He caved in when the tire industry came knocking for gods sake, and the tire lobby is nonexistent compared to health care interest groups.

Health care industry and the US government on all levels go hand in hand. And to think that Obama will be willing and able to destroy this cozy relationship where everybody wins except for the patients and taxpayers, is, well... did I already say naive?

It's a miracle that any country was able to create some sort of system at all.

Oh well. There's not too many smart people in the USA anyhow.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Rutuu

It's not like you're inventing the wheel down there either...the US is the only developed country without a public option for healthcare.

Ever heard of Medicare?

Apparently not.

But thats okay. The majority of the people in the US, except for those who receive the benefits of a the bankrupt program have never heard of it.

Oh, and since it was implemented it has cost 100x more than what it was originally estimated to have cost by the Democrats who legislated it, and is STILL going bankrupt.

Go figure. A government program that isn't efficient or self sustaining.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Azure

Oh, and since it was implemented it has cost 100x more than what it was originally estimated to have cost by the Democrats who legislated it, and is STILL going bankrupt.

Go figure. A government program that isn't efficient or self sustaining.

It has more to do with the fact that the dominant private system is extremely expensive down there; the public system works within that economic framework. They have to pay market rates.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

Wheever a discussion about our healthcare is brought up , the first thing mentioned is usually "How come tha Guatemalan with 5 kids takes his kids to the emergency room when they have a cold, clogs up the system and doesn't have to pay". Well it's kinda because , like it or not, he's working with the choices the present system gives him. Without getting into a discussion about immigrants I'll just say it sours public opinion against them. And I hear it alot because Lake Worth is full of them. I don't have a link but IIRC the workers we pay $6 hr or whatever to do work "Americans will not do" actually cost $25 hr or more.
As far as I can see these are hard working people from a cuture where it's common to start large fanilies at a young age. Instead of blaming/hating them we need to find a way to work with this. I don't know if you have the same immigrant/indigent issue in Canada. Perhaps under your system you can't. LIke most Americans I don't understand your system .
I;m sure it's human nature but it seems so "American" to hate something/throw it under the bus than to try to understand and work with it. And no I'm not saying this is the only place with that attitude. It just seems to come up particularly with healthcare.

Up here, unless its a serious emergency, good luck getting health care without an official health care number.

I sprained both my ankles about 4 years ago working in Manitoba. At the time we thought I had fractured one of them, and we went to get it checked, and the hospital in Carberry, Manitoba refused to give me treatment because I didn't have my health care card.

Fast forward 4 years later, and I hurt myself playing hockey in Manitoba again. This time I had my health care card, so I was able to receive care, but like every other good citizen of Canada, I had to sit in the waiting room for 5 hours to get treatment.

Plus, we don't have an illegal immigrant problem in the first place. At least not like the US.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Shazam

It has more to do with the fact that the dominant private system is extremely expensive down there; the public system works within that economic framework. They have to pay market rates.

Which goes to prove my point that simply adding another layer of red tape onto the 10 layers that already exist won't help fix the two distinct problems the US has.

Cost, and access.

If Medicare can cost 100x more than it was originally estimated to have cost, and it was covering when it started up less than half the people Obamacare is supposed to cost, how much do you think Obamacare will cost in the end if they don't actually reform the 'private' industry to try and control the costs?

How much money could be saved by tort reform and allowing insurance companies to compete nation wide?

Two simple reforms that nobody seems to even care about.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Azure

Fast forward 4 years later, and I hurt myself playing hockey in Manitoba again. This time I had my health care card, so I was able to receive care, but like every other good citizen of Canada, I had to sit in the waiting room for 5 hours to get treatment.

Do you think that would be different in the USA? If so, why?

[missdpuck]

There is a couple at my gym from a rural area of Ontario who say the Canadian healthcare system is terrible and told me of long waiting times even in emergencies. It's part of the reason they moved here.

Then I hear other people say that that is crap, the system is great and they never have to wait. And I meet Americans who want to move to Canada for healthcare.

Does care ary by city/province?

The cover story of the latest Newsweek is "Killing Granny". It's the debate about end-of-life care. I think alot of Americans think that under socialized medicine they just euthanize older people secretly or something. It seems to be part of the fear.

And we have Medicare for senior citizens and disabled and Medicaid for welfare recipients etc.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Do you think that would be different in the USA? If so, why?

It would be different if I would have been back home in Pincher Creek.

Also, don't make it seem like everyone in the US receives horrible health care. There are millions of people down there that get great coverage. The problem is that there are also millions that get screwed over.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

Does care ary by city/province?

Well, personally I think Alberta has about 10x the coverage that Manitoba has, but there are still waiting lists in Calgary. And if I needed knee surgery, I would be on a waiting list too. A 6 month waiting list according to my dads doctor.

Small town health care is awesome though. If you hurt yourself, need a checkup, blood test, etc, etc....you get very good access.

[missdpuck]

So you have no choice but to be on the waiting list under your system? I guess that's what puzzles me. That sounds like our VA clinics. A veteran neds a test to save his eyesight, but the six months he has to wait for the test means he'll likely go blind.

[Cactus Jack]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Canada has a small population and a huge amount of resources. It can afford the healthcare it provides, and even then it's not without some serious issues. Take away the resources, double the population and then tell me how long can Canada sustain this free for all dream...

If we had 300 million people, the only thing that would go up would be the administrative costs but the system would still be what it is today, thankfully. 10X the people means 10X the tax revenue to run it. Take away the resources? Why would you do that when they are here? That is the backbone of the Canadian economy, that would be like saying take away money and shut down all for profit companies in the US.

People complain about wait times but people in the US I know pay ridiculously high premiums and still wait 6 hours in an emergency room. Myself, my family and my friends have never had to wait long at all for various surgeries, specialist appointments, physio, nothing. In fact, in my experience I have always had everything done in a few weeks, including a few surgeries.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

So you have no choice but to be on the waiting list under your system? I guess that's what puzzles me. That sounds like our VA clinics. A veteran neds a test to save his eyesight, but the six months he has to wait for the test means he'll likely go blind.

I have the choice to go to the US for care if I really need it.

Otherwise I'm stuck on a waiting list up here.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cactus Jack

If we had 300 million people, the only thing that would go up would be the administrative costs but the system would still be what it is today, thankfully. 10X the people means 10X the tax revenue to run it. Take away the resources? Why would you do that when they are here? That is the backbone of the Canadian economy, that would be like saying take away money and shut down all for profit companies in the US.

10x more people doesn't exactly mean 10x more revenue because not everyone gets taxed the same way.

And secondly, with 300 million there would be billions more in administrative costs. There is a reason that a municipal government tends to be more efficient than a provincial government. Provincial government than a federal government. Federal Government than a governing body like the UN.

[missdpuck]

A good portion of our healthcare problems would be solved if we'd all just do more deadlifts and eat more eggs.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cactus Jack

People complain about wait times but people in the US I know pay ridiculously high premiums and still wait 6 hours in an emergency room. Myself, my family and my friends have never had to wait long at all for various surgeries, specialist appointments, physio, nothing. In fact, in my experience I have always had everything done in a few weeks, including a few surgeries.

And? So those of us who have family stuck on waiting lists should just shut the hell up?

Why does it always have to turn into a 'well the US has waiting lists too.'

There are waiting lists here in Canada. Long waiting lists.

And trust me, if you needed knee surgery, you would be on a waiting list too. And if you lived in Manitoba and needed a MRI, you would be on a waiting list too.

There are problems here in Canada with our health care system that need to be fixed too. Standing on our pedestal and telling the whole world how awesome our health care is because our family received good health care doesn't change the fact that there are thousands of other people who can't receive that kind of care.

In fact, doing that is very similar to the people in the US who DO receive good quality health care, and they're standing on their pedestal too telling the whole world how awesome THEIR health care is. Despite the fact that there are people going bankrupt overnight paying for surgery that their insurance company refused to cover.

[Cactus Jack]

Originally Posted by Azure

10x more people doesn't exactly mean 10x more revenue because not everyone gets taxed the same way.

And secondly, with 300 million there would be billions more in administrative costs. There is a reason that a municipal government tends to be more efficient than a provincial government. Provincial government than a federal government. Federal Government than a governing body like the UN.

Yes but the tax base is the same. 10X the population can roughly be equated to 10X the tax population unless there is some kind of anomally whereby these 270 million would either be all unemployed or high income earners. The fact is Canada has a good economy, lots of resources and 33 million people.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

A good portion of our healthcare problems would be solved if we'd all just do more deadlifts and eat more eggs.

Yes, the probably would.

Nevermind that, I could costs to US healthcare by 30% in 5 years if people quit eating so many frickin' carbs.