Tipping Policy II

[CaramonLS]

Well Aga, at Earls for example, those tips from the Servers were usually between 1.25$ - 1.75$ per hour added on to the cooks Salary.

My only beef with this is that cooks work at least twice as hard on the line as servers do. Servers generally walk away with more on any given night.

*edit* and before someone goes off on me, I've done both. And trust me Server is way easier, less stressful and more money.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally posted by albertGQ+Feb 8 2005, 05:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (albertGQ @ Feb 8 2005, 05:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bleeding Red@Feb 8 2005, 10:48 AM
Hiking prices up 15% won't cover it. Tips give a waiter the opportunity and incentive to earn, at times, the equvilant of $25-30 an hour.

Now the question becomes, do servers deserve $25-$30 an hour? I don't think so. There is no way they deserve up to 5 times as much as a Tim Hortons, or MacDonald's employee, IMO [/b][/quote]
Do hockey players deserve $5-10 million a year?

It is not a question of whether they deserve it or not. Ask yourself How much money would it take for me to do the job? Remember, in order to do the job you do need a few skills. Command of the language, basic math skills, the ability to remember menus and ingredients, take and give orders accurately, the ability to deal with 15-25 people who all want something from you RIGHT NOW!! reasonable hygine, must be of drinking age, need to be able to recognize when someone is over the limit beerwise.

Seemingly basic stuff, but, once again, try it, it is not as easy as it seems.

Also, that Tim's or Micky D's guy works way more hours than the average family restaurant waiter. Most work a grand total of 20 hours a week. On slow days/nights some go home without punching in. On paychecks alone the Tim's guy makes about $20-30 more a week. Top it off with the benefits, most restaurants do not offer them while Tim's and Micky D's have some nice extras.

[albertGQ]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+Feb 8 2005, 11:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ Feb 8 2005, 11:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Now the question becomes, do servers deserve $25-$30 an hour? I don't think so. There is no way they deserve up to 5 times as much as a Tim Hortons, or MacDonald's employee, IMO

GQ as I said in the other thread, servers are REQUIRED at Earls (as an example), to give 10% of the cost of the bill back to the resteraunt. So if you didn't tip on a 120$ bill, the server pays the resteraunt 12$ on that bill - out of his/her own pocket. [/b][/quote]
I don't beleive your 10% number at all

[Bleeding Red]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Feb 8 2005, 06:09 PM
Well Aga, at Earls for example, those tips from the Servers were usually between 1.25$ - 1.75$ per hour added on to the cooks Salary.

My only beef with this is that cooks work at least twice as hard on the line as servers do. Servers generally walk away with more on any given night.

*edit* and before someone goes off on me, I've done both. And trust me Server is way easier, less stressful and more money.

Couldn't pay me to cook. I tried once. The heat, few breaks, constant order changing, ,never sure if the food is cooked or even tastes ok, minor burns and cuts.

I'll pass

[Neeper]

Originally posted by albertGQ+Feb 8 2005, 11:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (albertGQ @ Feb 8 2005, 11:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

GQ as I said in the other thread, servers are REQUIRED at Earls (as an example), to give 10% of the cost of the bill back to the resteraunt. So if you didn't tip on a 120$ bill, the server pays the resteraunt 12$ on that bill - out of his/her own pocket.

I don't beleive your 10% number at all [/b][/quote]
That's because it's not!!!!!! Stop spouting B.S. Caramon. I've done both as well and was in the game for 5 years. No where does a server tip out 10% to support/kitchen staff. There would be an uproar, considering most customer onlytip 10% anyways. The number is 3.5% - 5% at most.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by TheyCallMeBruce@Feb 8 2005, 10:30 AM
I think they should tip people who work at Staples. I used to work there for a year and believe me, it gets busier than a restaurant. Try handling 1 customer who's talking to you, 1 customer who needs his fax machine from the top shelf taken down, 1 very impatient customer holding his broken cellphone, and 1 customer who's still waiting for this computer (but can't get it yet because I don't have the key to the backroom, and thus, have to wait for the manager), simultaneously all at once. And that's an average day for me.

So yeah, why didn't I get tipped back then? Seems unfair to me since I made less than a waiter/waitress.

Yeah but that's the job you signed up for. So did waiters too I understand, but if the guy at Staples expects a tip then so does everyone, in every store. Tip for your slurpee, tip for the guy at the video store, the grocery-bagger, the gas jockey, you'd be spending a fortune. Not to mention the tip you have to leave for your kids teacher every day, a little slice for the lunch lady and 10$ for the Principal. Don't forget a fiver on your desk or your office won't get cleaned.

Wait staff get paid crap, and if they weren't making tips they wouldn't do it. We'd be paying for it one way or the other. At least with a tip you have an option. If they were paying them $20 an hour, you'd still be paying their wages.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Feb 8 2005, 06:09 PM
Well Aga, at Earls for example, those tips from the Servers were usually between 1.25$ - 1.75$ per hour added on to the cooks Salary.

My only beef with this is that cooks work at least twice as hard on the line as servers do. Servers generally walk away with more on any given night.

*edit* and before someone goes off on me, I've done both. And trust me Server is way easier, less stressful and more money.

Another great point. Its the hypocracy that a sweating, labouring cook gets paid less for their labour than the service person.

If anything, the tips should be divided equally among restaurant staff, maybe according to position (ie you work harder you get paid more).

Or, preferably, tips should be eliminated and the employees should be paid like all other industries, by the hour, potentially w/ commission or incentives.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally posted by albertGQ+Feb 8 2005, 06:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (albertGQ @ Feb 8 2005, 06:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

GQ as I said in the other thread, servers are REQUIRED at Earls (as an example), to give 10% of the cost of the bill back to the resteraunt. So if you didn't tip on a 120$ bill, the server pays the resteraunt 12$ on that bill - out of his/her own pocket.

I don't beleive your 10% number at all [/b][/quote]
Believe it or not, it is a fact in many restaurants.

Things that happen but are not generally known:

The restaurant raking the top of the pooled tips up to 10%, leaving 90% to be split
The restaurant taking tips for the pool based on that nights sales info
Dine and Dash funds are generally set up by the staff seperate from tips, etc.
Restaurants charge staff up to $10 a shift for meals, whether they eat or not.
Restaurants charge staff for your "freebie"
Restaurant s take a "fee" from staff for processing credit cards (tip $10 on a visa, the restaurant keeps $1).


It can be crazy sometimes.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally posted by Neeper+Feb 8 2005, 06:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Neeper @ Feb 8 2005, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I don't beleive your 10% number at all

That's because it's not!!!!!! Stop spouting B.S. Caramon. I've done both as well and was in the game for 5 years. No where does a server tip out 10% to support/kitchen staff. There would be an uproar, considering most customer onlytip 10% anyways. The number is 3.5% - 5% at most. [/b][/quote]
I did it for 10 years in three different places. It happens.

I worked for a summer as a kitchen hand in an upscale restaurant - peeling potatoes, stuffing escargots. I got a small piece of the tips paid to the chefs every shift I worked.

Remember, there are hundreds of thousands of restaurants out there and each one can have a seperate policy. Even individual corporate stores have different policies.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Feb 8 2005, 06:18 PM
Wait staff get paid crap, and if they weren't making tips they wouldn't do it. We'd be paying for it one way or the other. At least with a tip you have an option. If they were paying them $20 an hour, you'd still be paying their wages.

Exactly. The key point here is that 'only' waiters/tresses get paid tips because they're jobs specifically pay so crappy.

Isn't that because the Restauranteur is paying the poorly, assuming (knowing) that the customers will more than make up the difference for them?

There aren't too many other industries where, upon ordering/buying something, you're expected to have some correct change/cash on hand to pay the service person. That would be moronic in most other professions, but because its institutionalized in Service, it 'makes sense'.

Servers get paid poorly because they get tips, they don't get tips because they're paid poorly.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Feb 8 2005, 11:29 AM
Servers get paid poorly because they get tips, they don't get tips because they're paid poorly.

I guess it's an old fashioned "Chicken vs Egg Matchup".

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Feb 8 2005, 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Feb 8 2005, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@Feb 8 2005, 11:29 AM
Servers get paid poorly because they get tips, they don't get tips because they're paid poorly.

I guess it's an old fashioned "Chicken vs Egg Matchup". [/b][/quote]
Yep. The chicken was _clearly_ present first... :P

[Bleeding Red]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Feb 8 2005, 06:29 PM

Other jobs where tipping is appropriate:

Hairdresser / barber
Car Valet
Maid service (in a hotel)
Dealers at casinos
bell-hop
food delivery person (pizza)
Grocery bag boy - if he helps you to the car


The tip is incentive to give good service. No tipping at Wal mart or the Bay, anyone gotten good service there recently?

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Bleeding Red@Feb 8 2005, 06:42 PM
Hairdresser / barber
Car Valet
Maid service (in a hotel)
Dealers at casinos
bell-hop
food delivery person (pizza)
Grocery bag boy - if he helps you to the car


The tip is incentive to give good service. No tipping at Wal mart or the Bay, anyone gotten good service there recently?

Yeah, you're right, there are other arbitrary, selective professions where the institution of tipping has infiltrated and is now pervasive.

I have no idea how additional examples of tipping professions legitimizes the practise. It just extends (in my mind) the # of businesses currently paying for their staffs out of your pocket. Its a sweet deal for the business, and seems to work out reasonably for the employee (though there are _huge_ hassles often associated w/ tips), but it sucks for the customer.

I just dont' like the idea of paying the employee. If there is a mandated 15% tax for eating in the place, fine. Instead they hide this 'tax', and make it 'up to you' so that your guilt will shell out a few more dollars.

I'd rather just pay for what I want, and have supply/demand/the business dictate the price. If it costs too much, I'll go elsewhere.

[Hot_Sauce]

Here's an interesting idea that I personally WOULDN'T support but I think it makes reasonable mathematical sense:

Take an average restaurant that has annual gross sales of $1 Million. Works out to $2740 per day. The average person spends $25 in a restaurant these days (my educated guess) means that the place sees about 110 people per day. If average tipping rates are 15% then the total yearly tipping through that place would be $150,000 or about $400 per day. Divide the $400 daily tip requirement by the 110 people per day and you get a tipping surcharge of around $3.65 per customer.

If the restaurant did this and HONESTLY split if out to the staff then nobody would have to tip. Of course servers would be pinned for tax on this so double it and make the surcharge $7 per head.

People would hate it and service would fall and restaurants would never be the same but at least you wouldn't have to tip anymore.....

Someone farther up in the thread said something about $8 for a Coke if staff were paid more? I think the math above discounts that opinion.

Do the right thing. Tip for good service and mention bad service to the server and/or the management. Don't be a coward and skulk away.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Feb 8 2005, 06:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Feb 8 2005, 06:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TheyCallMeBruce@Feb 8 2005, 10:30 AM
I think they should tip people who work at Staples.# I used to work there for a year and believe me, it gets busier than a restaurant.# Try handling 1 customer who's talking to you, 1 customer who needs his fax machine from the top shelf taken down, 1 very impatient customer holding his broken cellphone, and 1 customer who's still waiting for this computer (but can't get it yet because I don't have the key to the backroom, and thus, have to wait for the manager), simultaneously all at once.# And that's an average day for me.

So yeah, why didn't I get tipped back then?# Seems unfair to me since I made less than a waiter/waitress.

Yeah but that's the job you signed up for. So did waiters too I understand, but if the guy at Staples expects a tip then so does everyone, in every store. Tip for your slurpee, tip for the guy at the video store, the grocery-bagger, the gas jockey, you'd be spending a fortune. Not to mention the tip you have to leave for your kids teacher every day, a little slice for the lunch lady and 10$ for the Principal. Don't forget a fiver on your desk or your office won't get cleaned.

Wait staff get paid crap, and if they weren't making tips they wouldn't do it. We'd be paying for it one way or the other. At least with a tip you have an option. If they were paying them $20 an hour, you'd still be paying their wages. [/b][/quote]
But the guy with the slurpee does not do the same type of service job as the guy at Staples. He stand by the cash register and rings in the slurpee, very different from what a staple guy does, who has to convince the customer to buy a product and not make any commission from his wages.

I'm saying there are jobs that are way more underpaid and thankless than waitressing. At $7/hr, a guy at staples already makes less than an average waiter, and to top it off, the waiter gets tips. So I suppose what I'm trying to saying is I'm against tipping in general if the system of tipping cannot be fair.

Edit: for clarity.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

[quote]Originally posted by Agamemnon@Feb 8 2005, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red,Feb 8 2005, 06:42 PM

Hairdresser / barber
Car Valet
Maid service (in a hotel)
Dealers at casinos
bell-hop
food delivery person (pizza)
Grocery bag boy - if he helps you to the car[/qoute]

I've worked as a grocery bagboy at coop, and I didn't get tips lol.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by TheyCallMeBruce+Feb 8 2005, 12:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheyCallMeBruce @ Feb 8 2005, 12:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Yeah but that's the job you signed up for. So did waiters too I understand, but if the guy at Staples expects a tip then so does everyone, in every store. Tip for your slurpee, tip for the guy at the video store, the grocery-bagger, the gas jockey, you'd be spending a fortune. Not to mention the tip you have to leave for your kids teacher every day, a little slice for the lunch lady and 10$ for the Principal. Don't forget a fiver on your desk or your office won't get cleaned.

Wait staff get paid crap, and if they weren't making tips they wouldn't do it. We'd be paying for it one way or the other. At least with a tip you have an option. If they were paying them $20 an hour, you'd still be paying their wages.

But the guy with the slurpee does not do the same type of service job as the guy at Staples. He stand by the cash register and rings in the slurpee, very different from what a staple guy does, who has to convince the customer to buy a product and not make any commission from his wages.

I'm saying there are jobs that are way more underpaid and thankless than waitressing. At $7/hr, a guy at staples already makes less than an average waiter, and to top it off, the waiter gets tips. So I suppose what I'm trying to saying is I'm against tipping in general. [/b][/quote]
I don't know what to say other than "that's retail for ya". If you are against tipping, don't tip. As has been established, if tips are cut out of the equation, nobody is going to be a waiter. The only way they'll be keeping their staff is if they pay them a lot more and that's coming out of your pocket as well. Tip or no tip, a decent waiter in a normal restaurant is going to command more than the guy at Staples.

Looking at it another way... a bartender at Cowboys makes more than most schoolteachers.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally posted by Hot_Sauce@Feb 8 2005, 07:14 PM
Here's an interesting idea that I personally WOULDN'T support but I think it makes reasonable mathematical sense:

Take an average restaurant that has annual gross sales of $1 Million. Works out to $2740 per day. The average person spends $25 in a restaurant these days (my educated guess) means that the place sees about 110 people per day. If average tipping rates are 15% then the total yearly tipping through that place would be $150,000 or about $400 per day. Divide the $400 daily tip requirement by the 110 people per day and you get a tipping surcharge of around $3.65 per customer.

If the restaurant did this and HONESTLY split if out to the staff then nobody would have to tip. Of course servers would be pinned for tax on this so double it and make the surcharge $7 per head.

People would hate it and service would fall and restaurants would never be the same but at least you wouldn't have to tip anymore.....

Someone farther up in the thread said something about $8 for a Coke if staff were paid more? I think the math above discounts that opinion.

Do the right thing. Tip for good service and mention bad service to the server and/or the management. Don't be a coward and skulk away.

There are two things you are missing in your "math above".

1- Other taxes. If the restaurant pays out the surcharge as a part of your paycheque (as some do), they get dinged tax, not just the server. That $1 million dollar pie gets smaller. Also, patrons would be charged tax on the surcharge (7% GST) A $25 bill goes to $34.24 instead of $30.65 in the current system.

2- working hours - With set hourly wages come the desire to work lots of hours. Some restaurants employ 10 people for the two hours of lunch then only one from 2:30-5:30. THose other nine people will soon wnat more hours to make up for any loses.



Is the $1 -> $8 an out of whack ratio, sure. How about paying $4-5 (Stadium prices) for a non-refillable coke? could happen.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

I don't know what to say other than "that's retail for ya". If you are against tipping, don't tip. As has been established, if tips are cut out of the equation, nobody is going to be a waiter. The only way they'll be keeping their staff is if they pay them a lot more and that's coming out of your pocket as well. Tip or no tip, a decent waiter in a normal restaurant is going to command more than the guy at Staples.

Looking at it another way... a bartender at Cowboys makes more than most schoolteachers.

Yup, sadly that is the case. I've worked in many service industries, and waitressing seems one of the better environments to work in. My main argument is that the system of tipping is lopsided. What is it in waitressing that exceeds that expectation, and why should a waiter command more than a tech guy who works at staples? It's a mystery really.

I should clarify that I am not against tipping, I am against the scale that weights in regards to who we tip.