Karate?

[WhiteTom]

I'd just like to add in my thoughts on my experiences with my first year in Judo. I agree with most of what Nage Waza said but I will add that while competition is very important to the philosophy and practice of Judo, I wouldn't want someone to get the impression that you have to compete deter them from giving it a shot.

I have learned a ton in my first year. Every day there is something new to learn, something to improve upon. The skills that you get from Judo will also help to influence techniques in other things that you do. Because of how you will end up falling, approximately 8 billion times, you have to get good at falling and rolling. My doctor told me a story where his Judo training saved him from injury when he got hit by a car.

The culture at the Judo club that I am at and the nature of the sport itself is pretty social due to the fact that you are constantly doing exercises, drills, training and sparring with a partner. You get to meet a lot of different people when you aren't just standing in a line throwing fists (which I used to do in Karate). It also means that the learning process is slightly different from other martial arts. You will often learn more from talking to people of higher rank and learning from them than you will through any sensei lead training sessions.

Intense training I can attest to as well. There hasn't been a Judo session where I haven't been bruised, injured or just dog tired. I have been injured more times in my first year of Judo than my entire life. Yet, I have still come back every single time.

The training is intense, the sport is fun, the martial art is easy to learn but hard to master and it uses your entire body. You learn how to fight on your feet, on the ground and how to be efficient. The Karate classes I took as a kid had nothing on Judo.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Not sure how anyone would teach a martial art without getting the class in shape. If they are not working you, go elsewhere.

Its because the purpose of kung-fu is/was self-defence. Your self defence should be effective and practical whether you are in better shape than your attacker. Imagine how futile it would be to have a self-defence system where someone bigger and stronger could simply over power you every time?

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

Slava, Akido sounds very similar to what you're describing.

Aikido is quite different as there are lots of circular movements and more of grappling/throwing aspect. Wing Chun is a striking art, so while the movements are meant to be energy efficient and simple there is no grappling or throwing to speak of. (There are some options around that have developed wing-chun grappling, but in "pure" wing chun it doesn't really exist.)

Sorry to derail this thread with this stuff though!!

[Barnes]

I took Judo when I was a kid and I still remember a surprising amount that I use to take down drunken friends when they least expect it.

I still remember how to fall and roll an it has com in handy.

[HalifaxDrunk]

Originally Posted by Buff

I picked up a few things by watching, like proper punching and kicking techniques and such.

Homer Simpson taught me everything your really need to know:

First, you gotta scream like a woman and keep sobbing until the other turns away in disgust. That's when it's time to kick some back! And then when he's lying on the ground, kick him in the rib, step on his neck and run like hell.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by Slava

Its because the purpose of kung-fu is/was self-defence. Your self defence should be effective and practical whether you are in better shape than your attacker. Imagine how futile it would be to have a self-defence system where someone bigger and stronger could simply over power you every time?



Aikido is quite different as there are lots of circular movements and more of grappling/throwing aspect. Wing Chun is a striking art, so while the movements are meant to be energy efficient and simple there is no grappling or throwing to speak of. (There are some options around that have developed wing-chun grappling, but in "pure" wing chun it doesn't really exist.)

Sorry to derail this thread with this stuff though!!

Slava, I am not sure if you are arguing with me, or agreeing with me (I like the subject though!)! Kung Fu and any other activity is good for you. When I studied Kung Fu, we were spending half the class on technique, a quarter training and a quarter of the time excersizing. I am not sure why you think Kung Fu does not rely on size or anything like that. Like I said earlier, take more than half of what you learn in Kung Fu, and throw it away...it is just trickery that really will not win any fight. There are many moves that simply won't work, especially on a bigger opponent. In reality, a bigger person certainly does overpower most martial artists. Bruce Lee magic DOES NOT EXIST. That is why there are weight classes in the UFC and other combat sports, because it matters. Being in a good shape is often the difference, and I doubt there are many instructors that do not realize this. I can wrestle any of my friends and guarantee they will be tired and gasping for air within twenty seconds. After thirty seconds, I can do whatever I need to 'win'. St Pierre used a similar strategy against BJ Penn recently, he forced BJ to use his arms to their max in the first two minutes of the fight so he could not punch.
Akido is interesting, but I think it is a whole martial art based on 'magic'. I am not sure if it works, and am fairly confident a punch in their nose might end their day. Steven Segal was never beleivable. It might be really fun to learn though!

[Slava]

No, I'm not really arguing with you. Its an interesting topic though! I think that Wing Chun in particular was designed not to rely on size, strength and speed.

I will argue that the reason there are weight classes in UFC is because of sanctioning bodies though. There were some huge guys in the first 8-9 events and I don't think that the biggest guy ever won the whole thing. Back then the UFC and like events were restricted to jurisdictions like Mobile Alabama were they were kind of a sideshow. You could head butt, strike to the groin and basically whatever else you wanted to do. That was never going to be mainstream, and never be sanctioned in places like Las Vegas by their boxing and wrestling commissions.

[LChoy]

Pretty good article for wikipedia on Wing Chun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun

Wing Chun was never taken very seriously when it first started since it was invented by a woman. However the principles behind it made it very success for those that aren't the biggest or strongest. Wing Chun looked at how someone who was smaller and physically weaker could fight someone bigger and stronger. One way was to reduce the range of contact and learning to maximize your strike and reducing your opponents ability to hit effectively (ie, "Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch). Also, in tight quarters, conservation of energy and momentum become important as you'll have to be able to hit the opponent repeatedly and rapidly before they are able to counter (chain/engine punching is a very popular move). Lastly, the circle theory and using the centerline to gain power, but also to get your opponent off their centreline has been adapted by or resemble similar theories in other martial arts like Ninjitsu. My teacher use to say that there are only 2 moves in Ninjitsu. Getting your opponent to fall over forwards, and to fall over backwards and that ninjitsu teaches how to break your opponents stance so that they can't attack you

My parents would have loved it if I took wing chun (being Chinese) but I was always interested in Ninjas and being all sneaky, so it was ninjitsu for me

[wooohooo]

Originally Posted by Lchoy

Pretty good article for wikipedia on Wing Chun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wing_Chun

Wing Chun was never taken very seriously when it first started since it was invented by a woman. However the principles behind it made it very success for those that aren't the biggest or strongest. Wing Chun looked at how someone who was smaller and physically weaker could fight someone bigger and stronger. One way was to reduce the range of contact and learning to maximize your strike and reducing your opponents ability to hit effectively (ie, "Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch). Also, in tight quarters, conservation of energy and momentum become important as you'll have to be able to hit the opponent repeatedly and rapidly before they are able to counter (chain/engine punching is a very popular move). Lastly, the circle theory and using the centerline to gain power, but also to get your opponent off their centreline has been adapted by or resemble similar theories in other martial arts like Ninjitsu. My teacher use to say that there are only 2 moves in Ninjitsu. Getting your opponent to fall over forwards, and to fall over backwards and that ninjitsu teaches how to break your opponents stance so that they can't attack you

My parents would have loved it if I took wing chun (being Chinese) but I was always interested in Ninjas and being all sneaky, so it was ninjitsu for me

So you're a NINJA!? That's rad.

[LChoy]

well...a very low level one...

[Nage Waza]

Wing Chun by definition is exactly as you guys describe it. However, once you remove the BS aspect of the martial art, you can see it for what it is. If the instructor is worth your time, they are training you to fight, they are training you to be physically capable of fighting and they realize size matters. If a small person thinks for a second that their training will allow them to kick some tough bigger person's ass, they could be in serious trouble. A good instructor will teach them to kick the nuts, possibley gouge an eye and then run.

Judo might be a little different, since even a small person could have a pretty good chance to flip someone or at least drag to the ground (once they are tangled up), where they can quickly transition to an escape or submission. Here are some good examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XTo_CwIRlc&feature=fvw

Go to the 4:27 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRNHF...eature=related

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Wing Chun by definition is exactly as you guys describe it. However, once you remove the BS aspect of the martial art, you can see it for what it is. If the instructor is worth your time, they are training you to fight, they are training you to be physically capable of fighting and they realize size matters. If a small person thinks for a second that their training will allow them to kick some tough bigger person's ass, they could be in serious trouble. A good instructor will teach them to kick the nuts, possibley gouge an eye and then run.

Judo might be a little different, since even a small person could have a pretty good chance to flip someone or at least drag to the ground (once they are tangled up), where they can quickly transition to an escape or submission. Here are some good examples:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XTo_CwIRlc&feature=fvw

Go to the 4:27 mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRNHF...eature=related

I would have to say yes and no on the big guy stuff.

Most real fights I've seen only last a few punches. If a small guy knows how to throw a punch and where to land it, you can knock anybody out. Its just biology. If you get hit on your jaw with enough force, doesn't matter how big you are, you will fall down.

In UFC they wear gloves (of minimum 1 inch thinkness) and mouth guards which stop this from happening and the fighters are trained and well guarded. In the average street fight, two or three punches are thrown and as long as you are strong enough to throw beyond a certain force, you can win that fight.

UFC only consists of 5 weight classes too. So some fighters are walking in substantially heavier than others. In the heavyweight you have 60 lbs differentials.

Another point is that UFC fighters are lean. There are very few people in the heavy weight division on the street who are lean. A lean 250 will obviously have a massive advantage over a lean 180. But a non-lean 250 might not.

[K1LLswitch]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

How old are you (range) and what part of the city would you be willing to train in?

I've trained in Shotokan Karate since I was 14 (well beyond 10 years now), although I haven't done it lately. I also wrestled competitively for 3 years in school, which gave me some good exposure to grappling.

I can tell you that your experience depends greatly on your instructor and the "culture" of the dojo.

I could go on and on. Are you interested in weapons training or competing?

In the NW. I did Shotokan for about a year, but was too busy in university to really be committed to it, so when I broke my foot (motorbike accident), I never came back, and kind of regret it now.

I find weapons interesting, but it was more just the basics - punching, kicking, kata's that I enjoyed the most.

Thanks for the great discussion all - I appreciate the info!

[flip]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

If you're looking for an MMA gym, I'd suggest Calgary Fight Club.
I've got a few buddies who go there, and they all quite like it.

Dude, first rule of Fight Club is you DO NOT TALK ABOUT FIGHT CLUB!

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by blankall

I would have to say yes and no on the big guy stuff.

Most real fights I've seen only last a few punches. If a small guy knows how to throw a punch and where to land it, you can knock anybody out. Its just biology. If you get hit on your jaw with enough force, doesn't matter how big you are, you will fall down.

In UFC they wear gloves (of minimum 1 inch thinkness) and mouth guards which stop this from happening and the fighters are trained and well guarded. In the average street fight, two or three punches are thrown and as long as you are strong enough to throw beyond a certain force, you can win that fight.

UFC only consists of 5 weight classes too. So some fighters are walking in substantially heavier than others. In the heavyweight you have 60 lbs differentials.

Another point is that UFC fighters are lean. There are very few people in the heavy weight division on the street who are lean. A lean 250 will obviously have a massive advantage over a lean 180. But a non-lean 250 might not.

If someone can throw a punch well enough they can knock someone out, but not always. This is not an exact science. Some guys go down, some get angry, some will run away! Size certainly matters when it comes to being hit and to doing the hitting. It is called mass. Brock Lesnar can knock people out with way less skill than some of the lower weight classes, simply because there is so much heft behind those fists. Try getting hit by a bicycle versus tapped by a rig, both going the same speed.
I agree completely about the lean part, since that is my argument. If a martial art instructor, regardless of the style, is not working you out and making you sweat, then go somewhere else. You must be in shape to fight. I cannot believe this is even being debated. I have likely been in six different schools (two were wrestling, might not count) and the physical training was a large component.
Here is how it went down in two totally separate kung fu schools: About fifteen-30 minutes of stretches, breathing exercises and things like push ups, about 45 minutes of new technique and old technique, about 20 minutes of high intensity repetition of the technique (low roundhouse 20 sets of 20 followed by front kick 20*20). Then the circuit training, move through the facility in 2 minute periods. Each station consists of a tough things to do (lift weight with forearms, sit ups, punch a bag etc.). The last stage in two totally different schools in Kung Fu was to do repetitions of the classic wing chun punch (that piston style), 10 sets of 10 (100 per hand), to at least 1000. I have gone to 10,000 before. I don't recall going higher than that.
The purpose of all this is to be a fighter, and all the training gets you in shape, the repetition make your muscle memory that much greater, and the student can look in the mirror and realize that they made the right choice in taking the martial art.
If you haven't progressed far in a martial art, but have been to a school that does breathing training, let me know and I can describe the central purpose of that - it is pretty fascinating. They usually don't let you in on the function until much later.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

If someone can throw a punch well enough they can knock someone out, but not always. This is not an exact science. Some guys go down, some get angry, some will run away! Size certainly matters when it comes to being hit and to doing the hitting. It is called mass. Brock Lesnar can knock people out with way less skill than some of the lower weight classes, simply because there is so much heft behind those fists. Try getting hit by a bicycle versus tapped by a rig, both going the same speed.
I agree completely about the lean part, since that is my argument. If a martial art instructor, regardless of the style, is not working you out and making you sweat, then go somewhere else. You must be in shape to fight. I cannot believe this is even being debated. I have likely been in six different schools (two were wrestling, might not count) and the physical training was a large component.
Here is how it went down in two totally separate kung fu schools: About fifteen-30 minutes of stretches, breathing exercises and things like push ups, about 45 minutes of new technique and old technique, about 20 minutes of high intensity repetition of the technique (low roundhouse 20 sets of 20 followed by front kick 20*20). Then the circuit training, move through the facility in 2 minute periods. Each station consists of a tough things to do (lift weight with forearms, sit ups, punch a bag etc.). The last stage in two totally different schools in Kung Fu was to do repetitions of the classic wing chun punch (that piston style), 10 sets of 10 (100 per hand), to at least 1000. I have gone to 10,000 before. I don't recall going higher than that.
The purpose of all this is to be a fighter, and all the training gets you in shape, the repetition make your muscle memory that much greater, and the student can look in the mirror and realize that they made the right choice in taking the martial art.
If you haven't progressed far in a martial art, but have been to a school that does breathing training, let me know and I can describe the central purpose of that - it is pretty fascinating. They usually don't let you in on the function until much later.

I've never taken Kung-Fu specifically, but I've taken years of Shotokan, Boxing, and Wrestling.

By far the best workout and most practical for fights was boxing. You have to join a real boxing club to get the benefit of this though. Not just a community centre or the YMCA having "boxing" classes. I'm talking a sweat factory like the one in Rocky III.

Back to the size issue. I guess I've always been fairly strong for my size. At 165lbs I can bench well over 300. Still you have a point there is no way I'd be able to take a guy like Lesner down with a punch. Honestly I don't think I'd be able to take him down with wrestling or Jui Jitsu either. 265 lean is just massive. If a guy his size is fighting a guy my size, either I have been seriously asking to get my face kicked in or its classified as an assault.

[FurnaceFace]

What's the best option of an overweight dude who is pushing 40 and wants to lose some of that weight and discover some muscles he never knew he had? Getting the shinguard kicked out of me is not something I'm looking for...although boxing interests me, but more for the bag work than the sparring. I guess I'd like to hit something, but don't want to be hit back.

[Nage Waza]

Furnace, I would recommend simply finding a gym that you like and has the right demographic for you. Give yourself a two month period and see how you do in there...use the treadmill, weights etc and see how you like it. Try to get into some sort of routine that will eventually get you in shape. It is only going to get harder as you don't take action. Judo certainly is not for you, but you might find a karate school that is more your style, at least for now. You should concentrate on breaking the habits you currently have, and that can start with a two month 'health kick'. Give yourself a goal of that two months, stick to it. After that period, you will be pretty impressed with the change.
Boxing is great, that is for sure. I don't know much about the clubs around town, the last time I boxed was in 1990 or something, International Boxing Club near lindsay park. It is no longer there.