Air France plane lost: 'no hope' of finding airliner ** UPDATE- Wreckage Found **

[Flacker]

The new Airbus flagship falling out of the sky over the Atlantic. This could be really bad news for Airbus. Obviously it will be dependant on weather or not the Flight Information Recorders are ever recovered.

If I was a major airline awaiting delivery of this aircraft, I would be quite concerned.

If I was an Airbus shareholder, I would be cashing out.

[Dion]

Experts said the absence of a mayday call meant something happened very quickly.

"The conclusion to be drawn is that something catastrophic happened on board that has caused this airplane to ditch in a controlled or an uncontrolled fashion," Jane's Aviation analyst Chris Yates told The Associated Press. "Potentially it went down very quickly and so quickly that the pilot on board didn't have a chance to make that emergency call."

The plane "crossed through a thunderous zone with strong turbulence" at 0200 GMT Monday (10 p.m. EDT Sunday) and an automatic message was received fourteen minutes later reporting electrical failure and a loss of cabin pressure.

That was the last communication sent from the plane, when it was about 60 miles (100 kilometers) south of the Cape Verde Islands, according to the Brazilian Air Force.

"Tropical thunderstorms ... can tower up to 50,000 feet (15,240 meters). At the altitude it was flying, it's possible that the Air France plane flew directly into the most charged part of the storm — the top," Henry Margusity, senior meteorologist for AccuWeather.com, said in a statement.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...Dgq5wD98HVUD80

[CaptainCrunch]

I have bad instincts for this kind of stuff, but when I hear that there was no mayday call and the plane basically vanished off of the radar, my first thought is that something instantly killed the pilots or blew the nose off of the plane.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Flacker

The new Airbus flagship falling out of the sky over the Atlantic. This could be really bad news for Airbus. Obviously it will be dependant on weather or not the Flight Information Recorders are ever recovered.

If I was a major airline awaiting delivery of this aircraft, I would be quite concerned.

If I was an Airbus shareholder, I would be cashing out.

This was an Airbus 330, a plane that's be around for 15 years, NOT an A380, so it's probably not that big of a concern. At least not any more than boeing shareholders freak out when at 737 crashes.

[Peanut]

This is terrible news. Since the officials are basically announcing it as an air disaster, my condolences to the families and people involved.

I can't imagine falling out of the sky from 35,000 feet. Gives me the shivers just thinking about it. Whatever happened, I hope it was swift.

EDIT: So I just read the link to the article Jolinar provided... did it take them awhile to mobilize a search? Did they not start searching until after the plane was supposed to have landed in Paris? I'm not sure the relevance of the discussion about Brazil's terrible air traffic control towards the end of the article... but it's sort of confusing.

[Clever_Iggy]

Thanks for those posts Dion. I seems like a lightning strike is likely considering the information you provided, the flight path of the plane and the severe thunderstorms in the area.

[LChoy]

Normally, planes have doppler radar (or assistance from ground based tracking) that informs them of bad weather patterns. If they can't fly around them, they fly over them. Still, flying into a storm cell is quite turbluant. One time when I was flying to Thailand, our plane had to fly above a tropical depression. The plane suddenly dropped about a 1000 ft sending a lot of passengers to their seat and floors. fortunately, the drink carts were put away before, but some people got their beverages all over themselves. Scary time, but I still enjoy flying

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Peanut

I can't imagine falling out of the sky from 35,000 feet. Gives me the shivers just thinking about it. Whatever happened, I hope it was swift.

Everytiime I get on a plane I'm mentally prepared that I could die that day. I'm sure it'd be scary to go down, but I like to think that it wouldn't be a big deal for me. Hell, I enjoy turbulence.

Condolences to the families.

[Dion]

Whenever i board a plane that takes me across the ocean i always have an uneasy feeling inside me. The feeling gets worse when severe turbulance is involved. My only thoughts that are if it does happen i hope i die quickly.

My heart goes out the grieving families for thier losses.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Dion

Whenever i board a plane that takes me across the ocean i always have an uneasy feeling inside me. The feeling gets worse when severe turbulance is involved. My only thoughts that are if it does happen i hope i die quickly.

My heart goes out the grieving families for thier losses.

Those are my feelings as well.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

This was an Airbus 330, a plane that's be around for 15 years, NOT an A380, so it's probably not that big of a concern. At least not any more than boeing shareholders freak out when at 737 crashes.

This is a smige more concerning for Airbus becasue this model is relatively new. This particular aircraft has less than 5 years in service given the flight hours and average daily hourly useage by Air France.

When a 737 goes down, if it was a next gen, it would be a big deal. A 24 year old 737, isnt such a concern.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

This is a smige more concerning for Airbus becasue this model is relatively new. This particular aircraft has less than 5 years in service given the flight hours and average daily hourly useage by Air France.

When a 737 goes down, if it was a next gen, it would be a big deal. A 24 year old 737, isnt such a concern.

Fair enough, but this plane is pretty far from the "New Flagship of Airbus"

Although I suppose A330 and A380 are just a squigly line away from each other.

[Dion]

Interestingly, one of the systems most vulnerable to lightning strikes is the on-board weather radar located in the nose cone. It cannot do its job if it is shielded from lightning like the rest of the airplane - and so it is more likely to go down when lightning strikes (which is of course when you need it most).

So it is possible this plane was hit by lightning, knocking out the radar. The crew was suddenly preoccupied with an electrical failure, in the dark, over the ocean and without weather radar as they hurtled toward some epic cumulus nimbus thunderheads. Most Captains prefer to be on the flight deck for take-off and landing. Was the most seasoned aviator in his bunk when all this transpired?

The fact that the airplane sent a message that it had an electrical problem means, by definition, that it was not a total, instant failure. But did things cascade from there? They might have found themselves inside a huge storm only able to control the airplane manually - which means minimally - with the rudder primarily.

You may recall the crash of American Airlines flight 587 on November 12, 2001 as it departed New York's JFK airport. The plane encountered some wake turbulence and the copilot apparently stepped too hard on the rudder pedals - breaking off the graphite vertical stabilizer and rudder (the tail).

Even today's advanced - seemingly invincible - airliners care no match for Mother Nature on a bad night. If the conditions conspire against you, even a big airliner can be torn to pieces in an instant.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO...090601?sp=true

[mykalberta]

As per the search.

They dont know where the plane is, as once it leaves the Reclife radar station it is off grid while over the Atlantic. Thats why they are searching off the coast of Brazil and Africa. They basically have to use math based on the planes last transmission which can vary quite a bit.

This plane doesnt ahve a chance at didtching, not a clear day, the Atlanic Ocean isnt calm like the hudson straight. They will be lucky to find the wreckage within 48 hours. It will likely be weeks before we find anything as they will need to bring navy vessels to search the sea bottom for this.

I give it a 50/50 chance as to whether then could ever find the black box.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Fair enough, but this plane is pretty far from the "New Flagship of Airbus"

Although I suppose A330 and A380 are just a squigly line away from each other.

I just meant its concerning. Its definately not the flagship. It is the best selling widebody that Ab sells. One of the most efficient mid range wide bodys that exist.

Its the relative newness of this aircraft that makes this concerning.

[mykalberta]

A 330 has 4 backup AC generators and 1 DC generator.

It would have to be something very serious to lose all electrical systems. the 330 is a FBW airfract meaning it uses computers to fly instead of pilots having actual control. 4 electrical systems and the hydraulics would have had to all fail for the pilots to lose control.

This has to be something structual that happened durring the storm. Its unlikely that lightening caused this but there isnt alot of other options. Yes strikes happen frequently, however when they do if over land, emergency landing procedures are taken.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

A 330 has 4 backup AC generators and 1 DC generator.

That's good to know. I often see episodes of "Mayday" where they lose engine power, and also lose other key systems because they have lost the ability to generate power. I always wondered why they have a propeller to deploy for power (which has to create drag) instead of having some sort of generator they can switch on.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

A 330 has 4 backup AC generators and 1 DC generator.

It would have to be something very serious to lose all electrical systems. the 330 is a FBW airfract meaning it uses computers to fly instead of pilots having actual control. 4 electrical systems and the hydraulics would have had to all fail for the pilots to lose control.

This has to be something structual that happened durring the storm. Its unlikely that lightening caused this but there isnt alot of other options. Yes strikes happen frequently, however when they do if over land, emergency landing procedures are taken.

That's a little misleading. Just because there are 4 backup genarators doesn't mean they have full quadruple redundancy in the electrical system. It's still possible 1 system failure could bring the plane down, although that is equally unlikely as any system that is critical enough that if lost, will result in losing the plane, likely has at least one backup.

But if say you lose the transmitters from the autopilot/control stick to the rudder, then all the backup generators in the world won't help you.

[HOOT]

This stuff always scares me and blows my mind. We have the technology to zoom in and see our house from Google maps but they can't find a big freakin' plane?

[Bobblehead]

myk - why aren't you in aviation?

These threads always show that aircraft are something that interest you and you know a lot about them.