Famous abortionist killed on his way into church

[Devils'Advocate]

Michael F. Griffin killed Dr. David Gunn. A day before killing him Griffin walked up to Gunn and said "The Lord will give you one more chance." He has said that "Jesus tears for the dead children".

Dr. John Britton was killed by Reverand Paul Jennings Hill. Don't think I have to go any further on that one.

Clinic receptionists Shannon Lowney And Lee Ann Nichols were killed by John Salvi, who was known to hand out pamphlets for "Human Life International", a Roman Catholic organization.

Eric Robert Rudolph killed Robert Sanderson, an off duty copy working as a security guard for a clinic. Rudolph is a Roman Catholic who oft quotes the bible in his writings.

Dr. Barnett Slepian was killed by James Kopp a member of "The Lambs for Christ".

I'll make a wager with you Displaced.... $100 says that when the cops catch whomever committed this murder, he will be found to be a devout Christian.

BTW - Tiller was shot before.... by Shelley Shannon... also a deeply religious person linked to the "Army of God".

[Peanut]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Abortion debates are fun!

Anyway, when you live by the vacuum you die by the vacuum.

That's pretty poor taste.

Anyways, checking out now before this turns into a huge interwebz debate that makes me angry...

[jeremywilhelm]

Christianity put a Jihad out on Abortionists. I wonder if these people still get their 77 virgins?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Michael F. Griffin killed Dr. David Gunn. A day before killing him Griffin walked up to Gunn and said "The Lord will give you one more chance." He has said that "Jesus tears for the dead children".

Dr. John Britton was killed by Reverand Paul Jennings Hill. Don't think I have to go any further on that one.

Clinic receptionists Shannon Lowney And Lee Ann Nichols were killed by John Salvi, who was known to hand out pamphlets for "Human Life International", a Roman Catholic organization.

Eric Robert Rudolph killed Robert Sanderson, an off duty copy working as a security guard for a clinic. Rudolph is a Roman Catholic who oft quotes the bible in his writings.

Dr. Barnett Slepian was killed by James Kopp a member of "The Lambs for Christ".

I'll make a wager with you Displaced.... $100 says that when the cops catch whomever committed this murder, he will be found to be a devout Christian.

BTW - Tiller was shot before.... by Shelley Shannon... also a deeply religious person linked to the "Army of God".

What is your point? I was talking about pro-lifers, not abortionist killers.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

By the logic you've used, there would be no pro-lifers who are not religious zealots...or did I misinterpret what you said?

Morality does not stem solely from religion. Sometimes, it doesn't stem from religion at all.

I did indeed claim that all pro-lifers I had personally met were religious. And that I suspect that most pro-lifers in general are religious or take their morality from the Bible.

I personally agree with you that morality need not stem from religion. However many strongly religious people believe that morality ONLY comes from religion. And this is not just hicks from the bible belt or people who have no consequence on how the abortion issue plays out. There are people in positions of power who also believe that morality must necessarily come from religion.

In fact I've seen arguments from religious people that if there was no god, we'd have no morality and life would be horrible and therefore God must exist.

So lets say we've divided the population into two camps here.
1) Those who feel morality is created by humanity
2) Those who feel morality is created by God and installed in us, or taught to us through a religious text

Then if we spent a lot of time analyzing Christian morality we'd find that a lot of it is rules that must be followed absolutely. The Bible does not say, "Do not kill (except when someone is trying to kill you)". However our own laws (man made morality) do provide exceptions like that.

So PART of the abortion issues might be said to be between a group of people that believes in exceptions and unique cases and between a group of people that believes in following absolute laws. For staunch Christians it is never okay to kill a fetus. For a lot of non-Christians they can imagine scenarios where they believe it is justified. The most famous example being rape. Would you want to raise the child of a man who raped you? Or they can imagine a single teenage mom who is still in high school and they don't think that is an ideal scenario in which to raise a child. And given population problems perhaps not having the child would be for the best for everyone. For the mother, for the child, for the country, for the mother's family, etc. Even if that sounds reasonable to someone, if their morality is of the "absolute" type then they still can't make those exceptions and must say that abortion is wrong in any and every case.

So for this one small part of the issue I've examined, religion plays a major role. My argument being that religious people tend to believe in following absolute laws and that another whole segment of society believes that is a bad way of doing things.

We could talk more about specific differences between the pro-life and pro-choice camps like the emphasis on individual freedom and liberty that the pro-choice camp believes in and show how religion plays a major role in the "pro-life" camp not emphasizing those values.

Anyways in my mind religion and morality are fundamentally linked because a large percentage of the population thinks that they are necessarily linked. We both agree its a morality issue. But to me suggesting that it is much more an emotional and moral issue and not a religious one is to deny the many links between emotion, morality and religion. They are all interconnected IMO.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

BS.

Only people I've met who are staunchly pro-life are also extremely religious. They get their stance on it straight from their religion. Doesn't matter if they're quoting Bible verses, you just have to ask them where they got their ideas and convictions about it from.

I dunno maybe it isn't as apparent living in the US where most people claim to be religious. But here in Canada I get the distinct impression that the vast majority of pro-lifers are religious. And the militant pro-lifers especially.

You can't separate the issue from religion, Christianity is the major reason why Abortion issues are framed like they are. It is an emotional issue because it deals with life and babies. Its a moral issue for sure. But a large percentage of the people in your country claim to get their morality from a single book. So to say that book has little effect on the debate would be to ignore the reality of the situation. If you claim your morality comes from God, from your religion then it will affect the issue. And if you believe God would punish those who abort, then its not a large leap to annoint yourself the executor of God's judgment upon those people.

The issue is inextricably tied into Christianity. I'm shocked you tried to claim otherwise.

As a person who's not religious and lands on the rights of the life of a fetus, who thinks that abortion shouldn't be used as a form of convenient birth control, I say hey.

I know lots of non religious people that land more on the pro-life moderate side.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

What is your point? I was talking about pro-lifers, not abortionist killers.

His point is that there is a clear link between militant pro-lifers and religion. A link you were trying to play down or deny with your comment that the issue is more about emotions and morality.

[jeremywilhelm]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Abortion debates are fun!

Anyway, when you live by the vacuum you die by the vacuum.

so... wrong... to laugh....

[Dion]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Abortion debates are fun!

Anyway, when you live by the vacuum you die by the vacuum.

A sick joke and in very poor taste.

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Abortion debates are fun!

Anyway, when you live by the vacuum you die by the vacuum.

That's horrible. But goddamn, I laughed.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

His point is that there is a clear link between militant pro-lifers and religion. A link you were trying to play down or deny with your comment that the issue is more about emotions and morality.

No.

Where did I use any adjective (other than vocal) to describe pro-lifers? I was referring to the collective, not the radical.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Dion

A sick joke and in very poor taste.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

Abortion debates are fun!

Anyway, when you live by the vacuum you die by the vacuum.

We need a disgusted button on this board sometimes. This is over the line to me.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

No.

Where did I use any adjective (other than vocal) to describe pro-lifers? I was referring to the collective, not the radical.

I'm not even sure how that applies to the post you replied to.

1) Some dude posts some stuff about religious people killing abortionists. It is very on-topic for the thread since the thread is about someone killing an abortionist. He didn't quote any particular post
2) You ask "What is your point? I was talking about pro-lifers, not abortionist killers."

My reply was more my own views. But this doesn't address the fact that you quoted someone who wasn't specifically responding to you and insinuating that their whole post was in fact specifically addressed to something you said.

My reply to your post should have been...
"What is your point? Doesn't matter what you were talking about, he's chimed in with some interesting info anyways."

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I'm not even sure how that applies to the post you replied to.

1) Some dude posts some stuff about religious people killing abortionists. It is very on-topic for the thread since the thread is about someone killing an abortionist. He didn't quote any particular post
2) You ask "What is your point? I was talking about pro-lifers, not abortionist killers."

My reply was more my own views. But this doesn't address the fact that you quoted someone who wasn't specifically responding to you and insinuating that their whole post was in fact specifically addressed to something you said.

My reply to your post should have been...
"What is your point? Doesn't matter what you were talking about, he's chimed in with some interesting info anyways."

Come on. You know as well as I do his post was directed at something I said. He'd probably say the same.

And yes, it is interesting info. I think they were all at least temporarily insane too.

[JoseCuervo]

I find it weird that he was able to run a late-term abortion clinic (rare in the United States) in Kansas of all places, which is ground zero to Christian religious fundamentalism in the entire world. Ie. Westboro Baptist Church.

[Devils'Advocate]

When DFF said "it's not really about religion", I assumed he meant "killing abortion doctors". Since, clearly, those that are killing abortion doctors... in each and every case I have read about... is about religion.

If "it's not really about religion" meant being pro-life or not, I'd disagree.... but only moderately. There is a tendency for pro-lifers to be more religious than those that are pro-choice, but not as cut and dry as with those who kill for the cause.

[J pold]

I can't help but wonder how exactly you become a famous abortionist...

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by JoseCuervo

I find it weird that he was able to run a late-term abortion clinic (rare in the United States) in Kansas of all places, which is ground zero to Christian religious fundamentalism in the entire world. Ie. Westboro Baptist Church.

Dude, Westboro Baptist Church is not a 'Christian religious fundamentalist' group. It's an outlier. It's not even respected by real Christian religious fundamentalist groups.

It's a cesspool of inbred hate.

The good news in all of this is that the FBI has an excellent description of the shooter and his vehicle. He won't get far.

http://www.kwch.com/global/story.asp?s=10451609

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by J pold

I can't help but wonder how exactly you become a famous abortionist...

By being controversial and pushing the limits of the law. It gets you noticed, indicted and talked about on national news programs.