Raptors 2009 offseason thread

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by moon

The Raptors really got screwed by getting the number #1 pick in the first year HS weren't allowed to go straight to the NBA. Instead of getting another star to par with Bosh they got Bargnani instead.

Bargs is better than Oden (who we would have drafted) at this point in their careers. We just missed the best players in the draft (B. Roy).

Originally Posted by moon

Its great that Colangelo likes the international players/game but I think he may focus on it too much and therefore showhorn guys into roles they really shouldn't have.

Example?

We hardly have any euros other than our starting PG and C and they are in fine roles. What players are you referring to?

If anything, we need more euros. Losing Delfino and Garbs was devastating to the team. And with a team of soft jumpshooters we need to play a euro brand.

Originally Posted by moon

Graham may be tough but he can't play basketball so that toughness sort of goes for nothing when he constantly hurts the team by being out there.

*eyeroll*

Kapono on defense is the closest NBA teams get to penalty killing, and no one* on the team is above average in defense, size, athleticism or rebounding.
Graham is.

*other than Marion, but I'm talking about giving the job to Graham before we got him

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by moon

Handing the team over to Bargnani, a medicore, soft, one-dimensional player, seems to me like a recipe for the lottery for the next 10 years.

The Raptors really got screwed by getting the number #1 pick in the first year HS weren't allowed to go straight to the NBA. Instead of getting another star to par with Bosh they got Bargnani instead.

I don't see why Bosh would re-sign when his deal is up so I think they should really look at moving him sooner than later. The team isn't going to be competitive next year anyways so you might as well maximize the trade value by moving him early.

Its great that Colangelo likes the international players/game but I think he may focus on it too much and therefore showhorn guys into roles they really shouldn't have.

Graham may be tough but he can't play basketball so that toughness sort of goes for nothing when he constantly hurts the team by being out there.

When Bragnani was finally given a starters role last year, he played quite well, still had to play under Bosh's shadow. The guy can put the ball on the floor, shoot 3s, and is developing his inside game. Have a better backcourt beside him and he will play better imo.

I think the Raps will get a future star at the 9th spot. Other 9th overalls recently drafted by Colangelo are Stoudamire and Marion. Continue the trend.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Bargs is better than Oden (who we would have drafted) at this point in their careers. We just missed the best players in the draft (B. Roy).

Still fairly early in Oden's career, but it does appear that he is going to have trouble in terms of health going forward.

Example?

We hardly have any euros other than our starting PG and C and they are in fine roles. What players are you referring to?

If anything, we need more euros. Losing Delfino and Garbs was devastating to the team. And with a team of soft jumpshooters we need to play a euro brand.

Not talking about Euro players, but Euro types. I include Anthony Parker in there, Bargnani being relied on as he is, Kapono fits there.

The fact that they want to play that soft jumpshooting Euro style.

Garbajossa is a Euro but he sure doesn't play like it. I don't care if you have European players it is more the style that he tried to bring over than the actual European players that I didn't like.

*eyeroll*

Kapono on defense is the closest NBA teams get to penalty killing, and no one* on the team is above average in defense, size, athleticism or rebounding.
Graham is.

*other than Marion, but I'm talking about giving the job to Graham before we got him

Just because other players on the team suck doesn't change the fact that Joey Graham was terrible either.

Graham may be above average in terms of athleticism but he was very average in terms of defense. Too many very good plays followed by him watching his man go right around him to be anything more than average in my books.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by moon

Not talking about Euro players, but Euro types. I include Anthony Parker in there, Bargnani being relied on as he is, Kapono fits there.

The fact that they want to play that soft jumpshooting Euro style.

Garbajossa is a Euro but he sure doesn't play like it. I don't care if you have European players it is more the style that he tried to bring over than the actual European players that I didn't like.

You, and I, just don't like pussies - which comprise too much of this team.

Not sure why that is a euro thing. Sounds a little Don Cherry-ish.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Gozer

You, and I, just don't like pussies - which comprise too much of this team.

Not sure why that is a euro thing. Sounds a little Don Cherry-ish.

I say Euro thing because they tend to have the soft, jump shooting big men- Bargnani, Dirk, Sabonis, Vlade etc. over the tough, rebounding shotblocking guys big men from the US.

It seems to me that the Europeans play a much more "soft" style and the international game is much more geared toward this style as well.

Maybe it is a Don Cherry-ish thing from me but that is the perception that I get from European basketball and European players as well.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by moon

Graham may be above average in terms of athleticism but [Graham] was very average in terms of defense. Too many very good plays followed by him watching his man go right around him to be anything more than average in my books.

I agree, average makes him a massive upgrade from Kapono, Moon, Bargs, and whoever else we trotted out at SF.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by Gozer

I think Parker is a terrific 6th man on a playoff team. "Nothing more than a set shooter" is really selling him short, but as long as he is our best swingman we are not a playoff team.


I think Graham should have been handed a starting spot at the "3" until the Marion trade happened, see if he can fill the role that we all see as a weakness. Instead, we probably drop him and he'll have a solid career for someone else.



Great on O, weak on D. Half a stud.



I disagree with that sentiment of Bosh, relies on his jump shot and is erasable around the net. It's anecdotally true, but its not true about Bosh.

I'd like to see how many players could dominate the paint with Bargs, Kapono Parker and Calderon as his supporting cast.

The team's composition is weak, and that's bad GMing.

RE: Parker.
He's not a 6th man on a playoff team. Perhaps an 8th. He can't create his own shot, has decent handles and very little athleticism.

RE: Graham.
He isn't consistent and doesn't dominate in practice against guys like Kapono, Parker, Bargs and Moon, so that's why he doesn't get handed the spot.

RE: Jose.
He was weak on defence because of his Hammy, I thought I stated this. The year before he was much better at holding his player to the perimeter.

RE: Team Composition.

Yeah it's a bad composition, so rather than sink with a superstar, trade him and some loafers for more talent at more positions.

Re: Bosh. He isn't a dominant 4th quarter force. He falls in love with his jimmy if he can't take guys off the dribble. Rarely, does he post up. He is a face up 4. Get CB another player that forces the d to pay attention to the other guy instead of bosh. This comes back to the composition thing. TJ and Jose were great in that TJ would be able to break down 90% of all the other PGs and get to the hole forcing D's to collapse. Jose can do it too, but his hamstring limited his production last year.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

RE: Parker.
He's not a 6th man on a playoff team. Perhaps an 8th. He can't create his own shot, has decent handles and very little athleticism.

RE: Graham.
He isn't consistent and doesn't dominate in practice against guys like Kapono, Parker, Bargs and Moon, so that's why he doesn't get handed the spot.

RE: Jose.
He was weak on defence because of his Hammy, I thought I stated this. The year before he was much better at holding his player to the perimeter.

RE: Team Composition.

Yeah it's a bad composition, so rather than sink with a superstar, trade him and some loafers for more talent at more positions.

Re: Bosh. He isn't a dominant 4th quarter force. He falls in love with his jimmy if he can't take guys off the dribble. Rarely, does he post up. He is a face up 4. Get CB another player that forces the d to pay attention to the other guy instead of bosh. This comes back to the composition thing. TJ and Jose were great in that TJ would be able to break down 90% of all the other PGs and get to the hole forcing D's to collapse. Jose can do it too, but his hamstring limited his production last year.

You need to qualify the Jose was better last year. Better than what? A pile of dung? Under no circumstances would a lineup of Jose, Bosh and Bargs be considered even average defensively. AB got better but still has a long way to go. Bosh simply put is a toothpick out there mixing with some big boys. He can take advantage of his speed matchup on offense but on defense he just does not possess the strength or the intensity.

The whole plan this year was to makeup for the pathetic perimeter defense by having JO there to take away the easy layups. At least when Marion arrived they had ONE perimeter defender.

As to the Joey debate I don't see any reason whatsoever why he would be retained. Heck if they had the option they would dump Kapono and Banks right along with him. Parker will make a good backup if he dosen't want to take the Euro dough.

So many holes and ? to fill them with. Defense and toughness virtually absent from the roster. Signing Bosh to a max unless they intend to deal him just plain silly. Marion probably at best a sign and trade because A he will want too much or B he wants out anyway.

Get another pick BC. Grab a couple of athletic guys that can play both ends.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

You need to qualify the Jose was better last year. Better than what? A pile of dung? .

Last year he was a quality defender. He was by no means elite, but at least he did a passable job. This year people forget about his Hamstring injury. Has anyone experienced a hamstring injury? Try moving laterally, stopping and stopping or exploding past a set defender. He was playing through the injury because we had no other depth to cover. I blame TJ wanting to be the guy and unlitmately too selfish as the cause of this poor depth year. If he would have just split time with Jose and acknowledged his injury susceptibilities then this team would have been a lot deeper and better at defending guard play.

I never said bosh or Bargs are good defenders. If anything, Bargs has the most potential but the farthest to go of the two. Bosh is exactly as you said: too skinny and not strong enough to mix it up on the the defensive end. He needs a body guard. Oak, AD would be good compliments. Now, who can we look to? booze? I bring it up because there is a dearth of these types. Tough, big, snarly, truculent types. We need stronger post defence and perimeter defence. I again agree with you that BC should pick up another draft-pick to upgrade the athleticism at a couple positions. He has bought and sold first round picks before, so why not with the raps?

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by moon

I say Euro thing because they tend to have the soft, jump shooting big men- Bargnani, Dirk, Sabonis, Vlade etc. over the tough, rebounding shotblocking guys big men from the US.

Sabonis is there because obviously you didn't see him play enough. He was the most taltented player ever, outside Magic & MJ. He could do it all: Bang, Board, Post-Up, Pass, Handles, jump-shot, defence and shot-blocking. We just never got to see him because Communist Russia Hid him behind the iron curtain, then forced him to play injured which led to him having little athletic skills left by the time of his NBA arrival. When he came here, he was the only guy to push back at shaq. He and the jailblazers nearly beat the lake show. It wasn't because he was soft, I can tell you that.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Sabonis is there because obviously you didn't see him play enough. He was the most taltented player ever, outside Magic & MJ. He could do it all: Bang, Board, Post-Up, Pass, Handles, jump-shot, defence and shot-blocking. We just never got to see him because Communist Russia Hid him behind the iron curtain, then forced him to play injured which led to him having little athletic skills left by the time of his NBA arrival. When he came here, he was the only guy to push back at shaq. He and the jailblazers nearly beat the lake show. It wasn't because he was soft, I can tell you that.

Sabonis is there because by the time he got here his knees were so shot that he couldn't bang that much at all. He may have tried to bang with Shaq at times but for the most part he physically couldn't play that way all the time.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Last year he was a quality defender. He was by no means elite, but at least he did a passable job.

He has always been a weak defender, at least according to me.

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

I blame TJ wanting to be the guy and unlitmately too selfish as the cause of this poor depth year. If he would have just split time with Jose and acknowledged his injury susceptibilities then this team would have been a lot deeper and better at defending guard play.

TJ and Jose are both (at worst) top 30 pgs in the league, it benefits no party to have and pay players that overlap so much. I don't blame TJ, I blame Coangelo. It's not like he was taken by surprise when he traded TJ and had nothing resembling depth left.

That's just bad GMing. Again. By a bad GM.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by Gozer

He has always been a weak defender, at least according to me.



TJ and Jose are both (at worst) top 30 pgs in the league, it benefits no party to have and pay players that overlap so much. I don't blame TJ, I blame Coangelo. It's not like he was taken by surprise when he traded TJ and had nothing resembling depth left.

That's just bad GMing. Again. By a bad GM.

Notwithstanding, your sentiments about BC are noted, yet I feel he is a quality executive

. TJ and Jose are way better than that. Name 28 better PGs! You can't. Perhaps they are bottom of the top 20. But together they were a two headed monster that gave opposing defences matchup nightmares. TJ wanted to be a starter, period. He was being paid like it and Jose was due for a hefty raise, so he wanted to start and forced colangelo's hand. Look at TJ, riding the bench in Indiana at the end of the season. He was relegated to a backup role behind Jarret Jack. Obviously, TJ isn't what he thinks he is and it cost BC some credibility and respect. Personally, I like internal competition for any club and BC doesn't apparently.

BC is riding this coach to a contract extension, because if the coach goes, then Collangelo will too.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Notwithstanding, your sentiments about BC are noted, yet I feel he is a quality executive

I certainly respect that.

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

TJ and Jose are way better than that. Name 28 better PGs! You can't. Perhaps they are bottom of the top 20.

Not what I meant my friend. I meant this team is too lousy to have two starting calibre PGs when (this would be last offseason) we only had one other position with a legitimate starter (PF).

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Personally, I like internal competition for any club and BC doesn't apparently.

This is the sentiment I was trying to pre-empt. Having two players that could be above average for 36 mins each would get max 24 mins each. That's not good asset management.

The fact that BC gave away TJ for a mild upgrade over Rasho (and I'm not convinced JO was an upgrade at all over Rasho) is simply a bad trade. If Coangelo had been able to land a G. Wallace or Magette and kept Rasho then I think last year's team is playoff calibre. Giving away a starting PG to swap the style of similarly talented centres is bad asset management.

I realize that you might disagree with a number of assertions, such as Rasho = JO or Ford is worth Wallace, I'm not going to debate those.

I will debate that BC made a lousy trade, gutting the only real strength this team had (depth) without enough of an upgrade.
He then exacerbated that lousy trade by dumping JO's contract by giving away a 1st rounder.

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Obviously, TJ isn't what he thinks he is and it cost BC some credibility and respect.

Poppycock. BC made a bad trade. From the end of last season to the end of this past season he traded: starting PG + starting C + 1st round pick for a free agent SF and a guard with a lousy contract.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

Originally Posted by Gozer

Not what I meant my friend. I meant this team is too lousy to have two starting calibre PGs when (this would be last offseason) we only had one other position with a legitimate starter (PF).

Ah, well I will accord that then. I would argue we had two more starters in Rasho and AP, but that is neither here nor there and they can be argued as starters no where else but Sac. But, I will say that you will be forced to make a move like BC did, if this type of situation presents its self. In lieu of actual trusted NBA opinions, we both can say it was a bad trade. If one of the scenarios you did mention were to happen in lieu of what did transpire(wallage/maggette vs hibbert/rasho/tj) it may have been a differnet fate for the 08/09 raps.

Originally Posted by Gozer

This is the sentiment I was trying to pre-empt. Having two players that could be above average for 36 mins each would get max 24 mins each. That's not good asset management.

I understand that logically you have a case. If the minutes are as black and white as that, with everyone healthy all season then yes. However, one variable that can never be logically predicted (except with gaborik) is injuries. TJ is injury prone, and Jose incurred a bad hamstring strain this year. If the notion of both of them being unable to make a full year's worth of starts wasn't considered, why not then? And what would that count for? To me, that counts towards the playing time evening out somehow, with each of the players getting longer starts due to the other pg's health and endurance issues outstanding. Yet my point is moot. But, 24 wouldn't be max, just max when all are healthy and doesn't winning cure those types of issues? It's never a perfect world when you expect it, or want it to be and basketball teams are no exception; just ask lbj...

Originally Posted by Gozer

I will debate that BC made a lousy trade, gutting the only real strength this team had (depth) without enough of an upgrade.
He then exacerbated that lousy trade by dumping JO's contract by giving away a 1st rounder.

Okay, but during the response I have deliverd, I have begun to see BC differntly through the aid of your fair critiques and assertions.

Actually, he gave the first rounder for JO's contract, no(semantics)? Yet, I do agree with you that BC made a lousy trade and gutted the only real strength this team had, while aslo giving up a first and a solid verteran big. I think the Marion swap helped the team's starting lineup and the defensive presense. So, like you already stated except for one omission, the trade is a first, TJ, Rasho, Moon for Shawn "FA to be" Marion and Marcus "bad contract" Banks. It doesn't scream good basketball deal, does it? And this is where I concede to you.


Hmm, I guess I thought that BC was a better exec than that? He did flip charlie for TJ, but the next deal was considerably worse. Also, the Kapono deal isn't that sweet after seeing what kind of player he actually is. I would rather Kyle "So Easy I could do it" Korver.

IMO, BC's fate is now intertwined with Triano's success. This type of discussion doesn't bode well for a guy that may have to trade his most valuable asset in the coming future(ie draft night).

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by Ziggy Lidstrom

Actually, he gave the first rounder for JO's contract, no(semantics)?

I meant BC traded away a 1st in the the TJ-JO trade, and then traded another 1st in the JO-Marion trade. So he traded away two picks in that debacle.

It's nice talking to a guy that knows this stuff inside-out too and has similar views. I look forward to talking Raps with you in the future.

[Ziggy Lidstrom]

You're right! That future first, is it for 2011? And I think it's lottery protected, no?

Anyway, I feel the same Goze.

[killer_carlson]

Originally Posted by Gozer

The #16th overall selection.



So on a team that lacks toughness we should get rid of the two toughest players?

We could sign Kristic and draft Curry and see if Kobe can break his record 81 next year!

on a team that hasn't been tough since garbajosa's injury, I think we should get some players that are consistently tough and can consistently play defence.

Graham and Humphries are neither. Not even close. I dispute that either actually plays tough - because they don't outside of brief glimpses that every player has throughout the season. If either was consistent at anything, they would have been handed bigger minutes this season because the team was so bad and so depth deprived up front. They did nothing - scoring, defence, rebounding, toughness, intensity - on a crap team that was desperate for someone to step up. Both should be shown the door.

You point to Graham being drafted at the #16 as grounds for him being given a starting role.....sorry, you'll have to do better than that. Rafael Arujo was picked 8th and was a complete bust - aside from fouling out at every opportunity. Don't see him being given a starting role anywhere.... saying someone was a mid-first round pick and that entitles them to a starting role is pretty weak logic in any sport.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

You point to Graham being drafted at the #16 as grounds for him being given a starting role.....sorry, you'll have to do better than that. Rafael Arujo was picked 8th and was a complete bust - aside from fouling out at every opportunity. Don't see him being given a starting role anywhere.... saying someone was a mid-first round pick and that entitles them to a starting role is pretty weak logic in any sport.

I acknowledge its not a universal general rule (playing high picks), but on an embarrassment of a team that's dancing with last place in the league you might as well give a guy that has raw tools a chance.

And I argued that Hoffa deserved a starting role partway through his rookie year. You gotta find out if the guy is a bust or not. Hoffa was, are we sure Graham is?

[killer_carlson]

I think we can state that Graham is officially a bust - just like his twin.