Manslaughter during rugby game

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

I was actually enjoying your posts....until this one.....

I got absolutely manhandled by the Saries front row. My form leaves a bit to be desired after 7 yeas off. Do you play?

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

I got absolutely manhandled by the Saries front row. My form leaves a bit to be desired after 7 yeas off. Do you play?

yeah I am entering my 20th year playing.....ah crap...thanks now I feel very, very, very old.......

[Swayze11]

Originally Posted by valo403

If this happened 20-30m behind the play that defense is pretty weak. In that case he's not attempting a tackle and just getting it wrong, he's picking a guy up and driving him into the ground for no apparent reason. You don't have to coach someone to not randomly do that in order to avoid liability.

Agreed but at that level you must coach players in a very dumbed down way. Football is much bigger then rugby in Canada and I know when I played my 2nd year in club there were a ton of football players who were so used to the football rules that they thought they applied in rugby. Ive had MANY people block me as if they are playing offensive line when I am chasing down a kick or player. With only 1 reff on the field it is VERY easy to get away with a ton of things - that is why people classify this sport as violent. Now I understand if he was completely out of the play you dont pick him up and smash his head into the ground in any sport and if that is the case he does 100 percent deserve to be charged with manslaughter.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

you dealt with courts or judges much.....sometimes they stretch common sense.....and it appears you have played before.....the judge may look at this from the point of view of someone that has never watched/played a game before......court is a crazy gamble.....ask any of the lawyers on CP....and the burden of proof in civil court is much lower than criminal court....ask OJ

I deal with lawyers and judges on a daily basis and spend way too much time reading cases, ie. I'm a couple days from the end of law school.

While it's true that judges will stretch common sense at times, picking someone up and violently driving them into the ground well away from the actual play and with no apparent mitigating circumstances is not something you'd have to instruct someone not to do. Nobody in their right mind would be able to claim that they thought they were making a rugby play by doing that, there's absolutely nothing to it that resembles reasonable behavior.

That said, we don't know the facts here. If the issue is whether the tackle was simply dangerous then a lack of education on proper technique comes into play. If the tackle is as described above there's no responsibility to educate someone to not do something that is a gross departure from the standards of any sport. The point of view of a first time rugby watcher wouldn't be any different from a 45 year player, it's 2 guys in a large area of space away from the play and one picks up the other and slams him into the ground.

The burden in civil court is definitely lower, but if we're talking about placing blame on the school for not teaching proper tackling technique you'd have to prove that tackling technique is even at issue.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by valo403

I deal with lawyers and judges on a daily basis and spend way too much time reading cases, ie. I'm a couple days from the end of law school.

While it's true that judges will stretch common sense at times, picking someone up and violently driving them into the ground well away from the actual play and with no apparent mitigating circumstances is not something you'd have to instruct someone not to do. Nobody in their right mind would be able to claim that they thought they were making a rugby play by doing that, there's absolutely nothing to it that resembles reasonable behavior.

That said, we don't know the facts here. If the issue is whether the tackle was simply dangerous then a lack of education on proper technique comes into play. If the tackle is as described above there's no responsibility to educate someone to not do something that is a gross departure from the standards of any sport. The point of view of a first time rugby watcher wouldn't be any different from a 45 year player, it's 2 guys in a large area of space away from the play and one picks up the other and slams him into the ground.

The burden in civil court is definitely lower, but if we're talking about placing blame on the school for not teaching proper tackling technique you'd have to prove that tackling technique is even at issue.

I don't disagree with you, but I have played for 20 years, and seen all sorts of crazy things on the field and when I asked those people why they did them they said they thought they could or did not know they couldn't do it.

so it will be interesting, hopefully it does not give the game they play in heaven a bad image

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Swayze11

Agreed but at that level you must coach players in a very dumbed down way. Football is much bigger then rugby in Canada and I know when I played my 2nd year in club there were a ton of football players who were so used to the football rules that they thought they applied in rugby. Ive had MANY people block me as if they are playing offensive line when I am chasing down a kick or player. With only 1 reff on the field it is VERY easy to get away with a ton of things - that is why people classify this sport as violent. Now I understand if he was completely out of the play you dont pick him up and smash his head into the ground in any sport and if that is the case he does 100 percent deserve to be charged with manslaughter.

That is a good point, if he argues that he thought he was blocking the guy he might have some reason to claim he thought it was okay to engage him and that the throw tackle was unintentional and resulted from going into it wrong.

[alexle]

nm

[valo403]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

I don't disagree with you, but I have played for 20 years, and seen all sorts of crazy things on the field and when I asked those people why they did them they said they thought they could or did not know they couldn't do it.

so it will be interesting, hopefully it does not give the game they play in heaven a bad image

I agree, I've definitely seen some crazy things. We're working with limited facts here, but you've got to ask yourself if any sane person could honestly say they thought they were allowed to go for a spear tackle or throw tackle on a guy 20-30m's from the play. To me that's such incredibly unreasonable conduct that I don't see how you can justify it.

But like I said, limited facts so maybe there is a justification.

[valo403]

Just did a quick google search and read some articles from closer to the incident. Unsurprisingly, there appear to be quite a few conflicting accounts of what happened.

Some witness were saying that it happened immediately after a scrum and that the two players were grappling with each other before one slammed the other to the ground. Others are saying it was well away from the play.

Also, apparently the accused is an OHL player.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Swayze11

This seems like a total freak accident. IMO I think teams should do mandatory physicals to test for any type of abnormal things - but they dont. Rugby is a violent game, yes, but I think football is 100 times more violent.

I have played with some very dirty players and against some very dirty players, its part of the game. If in fact he did not have the ball and was far away from the play then absolutly it is assault. You cant just randomly tackle a guy who is not expecting it. The thing with rugby is you know 100% when you are going to get hit because of:
A) A guy cant come from behind and tackle you unless of course he is chasing you - but you cant line up behind someone.
B) If you do not have the ball you cannot be tackled - if you do have it, expect to get hit.

Thats why football is 100 times more violent, you can get blindsided at anytime.

LOL you haven't been in many scrums have you? Or in a ruck? I've been hammered from every angle and then some. Booted, punched, kicked. I played football as well and yep we did/get all that as well. There is a lot of stuff going on away from the play in both.

[Swayze11]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

LOL you haven't been in many scrums have you? Or in a ruck? I've been hammered from every angle and then some. Booted, punched, kicked. I played football as well and yep we did/get all that as well. There is a lot of stuff going on away from the play in both.

Oh I have, I think my point was you know when it is coming. If you are in a ruck you kind of expect getting cleated, booted, punched... but in football you dont have 100% of your peripheral vision because of the helmet, therefore you cant see blind sided hits/blocks.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Also, you know or expect where a hit will come from, very rarely will you get blindsided by a block, say on a kick return in football.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Swayze11

Agreed but at that level you must coach players in a very dumbed down way. Football is much bigger then rugby in Canada and I know when I played my 2nd year in club there were a ton of football players who were so used to the football rules that they thought they applied in rugby. Ive had MANY people block me as if they are playing offensive line when I am chasing down a kick or player. With only 1 reff on the field it is VERY easy to get away with a ton of things - that is why people classify this sport as violent. Now I understand if he was completely out of the play you dont pick him up and smash his head into the ground in any sport and if that is the case he does 100 percent deserve to be charged with manslaughter.

This is still true. Both my sons play club and one plays high school and good grief the high school bunch clearly has a large number of players who don't know what's going on. With the crappy weather their practice has been limited so the coach( and he is a good coach) has really not had time to work with them. They are offside, playing the ball on the ground, blocking, doing everything wrong you can think of in the scrum. But I've never seen a play as dirty as this one sounds like it is. Lots of clothesline tackles and apparent stuff in the scrum(so they tell me, can't see it from the sidelines) but nothing really way out there.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Swayze11

Oh I have, I think my point was you know when it is coming. If you are in a ruck you kind of expect getting cleated, booted, punched... but in football you dont have 100% of your peripheral vision because of the helmet, therefore you cant see blind sided hits/blocks.

Yeah, Swayze's right the collisions in rugby are very rarely unexpected. Generally if you don't see a hit coming it's more of an unitentional collision or it's a cheapshot.

In football there are perfectly legal blindside hits on most plays. I played defensive end and I can tell you that a 225lb slot back throwing a crack block is one of the most devastating hits I've ever experienced. And it was completely legal. I was never hit like that in rugby, the only time I recall not seeing a hit coming was where a ball popped up to me and I was focused on it as opposed to the tackler.

EDIT: Which explains why I didn't get the ball much

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by valo403

Yeah, Swayze's right the collisions in rugby are very rarely unexpected. Generally if you don't see a hit coming it's more of an unitentional collision or it's a cheapshot.

In football there are perfectly legal blindside hits on most plays. I played defensive end and I can tell you that a 225lb slot back throwing a crack block is one of the most devastating hits I've ever experienced. And it was completely legal. I was never hit like that in rugby, the only time I recall not seeing a hit coming was where a ball popped up to me and I was focused on it as opposed to the tackler.

But did you hold onto the ball . . . don't lie, we'll all know.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by valo403

Yeah, Swayze's right the collisions in rugby are very rarely unexpected. Generally if you don't see a hit coming it's more of an unitentional collision or it's a cheapshot.

In football there are perfectly legal blindside hits on most plays. I played defensive end and I can tell you that a 225lb slot back throwing a crack block is one of the most devastating hits I've ever experienced. And it was completely legal. I was never hit like that in rugby, the only time I recall not seeing a hit coming was where a ball popped up to me and I was focused on it as opposed to the tackler.

play more....I have been smoked and have smoked people plenty of times.

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by valo403

Yeah, Swayze's right the collisions in rugby are very rarely unexpected. Generally if you don't see a hit coming it's more of an unitentional collision or it's a cheapshot.

In football there are perfectly legal blindside hits on most plays. I played defensive end and I can tell you that a 225lb slot back throwing a crack block is one of the most devastating hits I've ever experienced. And it was completely legal. I was never hit like that in rugby, the only time I recall not seeing a hit coming was where a ball popped up to me and I was focused on it as opposed to the tackler.

EDIT: Which explains why I didn't get the ball much

Yep me too and my son is playing defensive end as well. He was trying out for the provinicial team a few weeks back. Busted through and was chasing the QB. The QB made a run for the outside and my son never saw that OT who was now back in the play and caught him completely unaware and at full speed. OUCH!!!!!

But I've seen him and I've taken some wicked hits in rugby. In the provincial final last year he decided he could just run at the try line and power his way through. Two guys hit him and two more piled on and he was flying through the air and landed on his head. Quite the smack and I was surprised he popped up as fast as he did.

You can get corked in either game.

[TSXCman]

A dump tackle is pretty much keep hold of the person around waist level and "dumping" them off their feet. I always felt it was the hits where you kinda lift the person and chuck them like a bag of potatoes, or you follow through suplex style. However you do it, the person ends up on their back, neck, or head most of the time, and if they do have the chance to break the fall it is resulted in a broken or sprained wrist.

The fact that it happened away from the play by so much doesnt make it a tackle anymore, you tackle the person with the ball. Without being there to make an exception by observation it is now a straight up malicious attack in my opinion.

[LChoy]

Bump

a now 18-year-old man has been convicted of manslaughter in the death of a 15-year-old rugby player in 2007.
The judge in the toronto courtroom made the ruling on thursday morning, but reserved sentencing details until after a 20-minute recess.
Many present did not expect a conviction, since castillo's family did not want charges pressed against the accused.
The defence claimed her client was actually acting in self-defence when he slammed castillo into the ground, saying he was simply protecting himself after castillo had held him in a headlock.
She also argues that castillo knew that rugby was a physical sport and willingly faced the risk of the game.
http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/loc...28?hub=toronto

[MelBridgeman]

That is pretty stupid...especially when the victims family did not want charges.