GM recalls 1.5 million sedans

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

no doubt thats true, however Toyota doesn't have a reputation of poor quality, but GM does. Why is that?

A fundamental tradeoff in engineering, you can either do something cheap, or you can do it well. You can't have the best of both worlds. American car companies picked cheap (i.e. poorer quality, lower MTTF) and Japanese car companies picked well. Model to model, there are going to be variations in quality and thus MTTF, but overall, I know Ford in particular focuses makes most of their profits on maintainance instead of sales (actually).

[Hack&Lube]

A lot of it is not Ford et. al. catching up, but Toyota, going down. Toyota has had reliability and supply chain problems since expanding their American plants.

Toyota manufacture and schedules used to be very monitored and controlled tightly in Toyota city or in smaller groups of plants. Toyota had growing pains trying to install more American factories and got spread thinly and too far apart and they are trying to scale that back now to get some reign back on quality control.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

The Truth About Car's beef isn't with the "quality" of American cars but the quality of the industry which is in shambles, stagnated, and has terrible designs and visions and implementation and an incredible amount of waste.

Even if a company is making a good car (in terms of "initial quality" as J.D. Powers puts it), do you really want to make a $20,000 purchase from a company that is teetering on the verge of bankruptcy? Who's parts suppliers and supply chain are themselves bankrupt or in the process of falling to pieces?

And Japan is somehow better at the free market than North America? Japan is the poster boy of government controlled industry. They started their bailouts years ago.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Shazam

And Japan is somehow better at the free market than North America? Japan is the poster boy of government controlled industry. They started their bailouts years ago.

I have no idea what you are saying. Who said anything about the free market? Government fostering of nascent industries to grow national production and create business is a good thing. This is Canada. Not the United States. It worked for Japan and is working for South Korea as well.


Japan came out of WWII (with American help I might add) to dominate so many industries to become respected not only in cars but electronics, musical instruments, heavy industry, recreational, optical industry, chemical manufacture, fabrication, business products, other industrial/business/consumer goods, etc. and usurped many oldschool American and European countries in doing what they used to do best.

Yes Japan has been in recession since the end of the 80s but they've maintained their standard of living and still have some of the top companies in the world and are leaders in many areas. Some economists argue that Japan did the right thing in government intervention in banks and industry after the bubble burst for them in 1989...that it could be quite a lot more worse than it is today even though the economic picture isn't rosy there.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

I have no idea what you are saying. Who said anything about the free market? Government fostering of nascent industries to grow national production and create business is a good thing. This is Canada. Not the United States. It worked for Japan and is working for South Korea as well.

What I'm saying is that Japan's car manufacturers did not accomplish what they have accomplished on their own. You expect the domestic manufacturers to live and die by the invisible hand. Do you expect the Japanese manufacturers to do the same? How do you know that their suppliers haven't been teetering on the abyss, and have simply been propped up by their government?

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Shazam

What I'm saying is that Japan's car manufacturers did not accomplish what they have accomplished on their own. You expect the domestic manufacturers to live and die by the invisible hand. Do you expect the Japanese manufacturers to do the same? How do you know that their suppliers haven't been teetering on the abyss, and have simply been propped up by their government?

Japanese auto companies are getting their own bailouts now, but for decades, they have been self-sufficient. A lot of it is due to the concentration of facilities there and a tight rein over manufacture with things like just in time production, etc. and corporate culture and a focus on efficiency and small size (due to the fact that most of the rest of the world doesn't have the American highway system and has more dense cities).

American companies are mess because of the auto unions. American domestic automakers have their pay their employees (who often don't have any work to do because factories are not working to capacity) more than double the wages of the so-called "import" auto makers. Look who is asking for bailout money? It's the domestics, not the imports. If you look at the American bailout, many of the Republican Senators who were against the auto bailout were from states that have Honda, Toyota, Nissan plants, etc. like in Georgia which benefits those states.

Even if you don't bring the UAW into the picture, the Japanese companies were the first to be able to react to the first oil crisis of the 70s which gave them their foot in the door while Detroit kept trying to pump out big gas guzzlers. Detroit already got a bailout in the 80s if people pay attention to history, complaining about the oil crisis and the imports encroaching on their territory. They also got legislation that blocked foreign auto makers from importing over a quota of cars into North America. That's why they started building their own plants in the U.S. Detroit still never learned and decided to keep building SUVs and big trucks as those were their cash cow and they've done nothing but seed their own doom.

[jammies]

When I was a kid, Japanese autos were just terrible - they were what you bought if you couldn't afford anything North American. So were their electronics. In a space of about 10 years they went from crap to quality, but it took another decade before that was widely known and accepted.

In the same way, the quality measures taken by the Big Three will take a while to affect the buying public's perceptions, although in their case it may be too late when it happens. They should have been challenging the Japanese in the early 80's instead of floundering around for 20 years before acknowledging the problem by changing their processes instead of just their offerings.

As an aside, the difference between Japanese and North American views on quality control was illustrated to me when I took a Toshiba laptop repair course a few years back, and the instructor recounted a story of his training early on in Toshiba's repair programme. When you open up a laptop, there are tiny little cloth/rubber discs that cover the screwholes, which you have to remove to get at the screws. Sometimes in removing them, either the glue sticks to the screw and not the disc, or the disc gets damaged, and you can't re-use them, so the expectation was that you order some of these discs to replace the unusable ones.

Well, head office in Japan called over after a little while, asking the Canadian repair depot why they were ordering so many of these discs, which, apparently, were almost NEVER needed in Japan. The Canadian explanation went back, and the Japanese enquired of their techs why this issue didn't happen to them, and found out that the techs would take a *hairdryer* and carefully remove these 1/10 cent parts after heating them sufficiently that they would come off undamaged every time. Of course, it took a Canadian tech about 10 seconds to remove the 4 discs and the Japanese about 5 minutes, but nothing to me demonstrates the difference between North American "get 'er done and clean up afterwards" attitude and the Japanese attention to detail.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Japanese auto companies are getting their own bailouts now, but for decades, they have been self-sufficient.

Are you sure about that?

A lot of it is due to the concentration of facilities there and a tight rein over manufacture with things like just in time production, etc. and corporate culture and a focus on efficiency and small size (due to the fact that most of the rest of the world doesn't have the American highway system and has more dense cities).

Everybody does kaizen now. And how does a Honda Pilot mesh with your claims of efficiency and small size?

American companies are mess because of the auto unions. American domestic automakers have their pay their employees (who often don't have any work to do because factories are not working to capacity) more than double the wages of the so-called "import" auto makers.

Do you know what the JAW is? Why do you think Japanese automakers keep moving their production facilities to NA? I find it ludicrous that you'd think that Japan, the most expensive place in the universe to do business in, is more competitive than NA in terms of manufacturing.

Look who is asking for bailout money? It's the domestics, not the imports.

Toyota also got bailout money, as you stated before.

If you look at the American bailout, many of the Republican Senators who were against the auto bailout were from states that have Honda, Toyota, Nissan plants, etc. like in Georgia which benefits those states.

What a surprise.

Even if you don't bring the UAW into the picture, the Japanese companies were the first to be able to react to the first oil crisis of the 70s which gave them their foot in the door while Detroit kept trying to pump out big gas guzzlers. Detroit already got a bailout in the 80s if people pay attention to history, complaining about the oil crisis and the imports encroaching on their territory.

No, Chrysler got a bailout. Japanese cars in the 70s were total junk.

They also got legislation that blocked foreign auto makers from importing over a quota of cars into North America.

Japan also has those same import quotas.

That's why they started building their own plants in the U.S.

No, it's because it's cheaper to build here.

Detroit still never learned and decided to keep building SUVs and big trucks as those were their cash cow and they've done nothing but seed their own doom.

Sure. And if the Japanese auto manufacturers ever get in trouble, their government will be more than obliging to bail them out, ad infinium.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Originally Posted by Shazam

And how does a Honda Pilot mesh with your claims of efficiency and small size?

Compared to a Ford Expedition or a Hummer?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteEbola

Compared to a Ford Expedition or a Hummer?

What about the Toyota Sequia or Tundra pickup?

Or how about the Honda Ridgeline?

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Originally Posted by Dion

What about the Toyota Sequia or Tundra pickup?

Or how about the Honda Ridgeline?

Missed the point did ya?

When the poster made a comment about Japanese industry being smaller and more efficient, the rebuttal was "what about the Honda Pilot". My point is, the Pilot and Ridgeline, as you point out are the largest of a fleet of relatively small and efficient automobiles. To say that the Pilot is large and inefficient when the Hummer is on the block is ignorant. My $0.02.

Although, a case can be made that the Hummer is a more efficient automobile then the Toyota Prius. Those who drive hybrids and think they are doing the world a favor need to look a little further into how their cars are manufactured. Parts shipped from the far reaches of the world, and batteries that are not environmentally friendly at all.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteEbola

Missed the point did ya?

When the poster made a comment about Japanese industry being smaller and more efficient, the rebuttal was "what about the Honda Pilot". My point is, the Pilot and Ridgeline, as you point out are the largest of a fleet of relatively small and efficient automobiles. To say that the Pilot is large and inefficient when the Hummer is on the block is ignorant. My $0.02.

Although, a case can be made that the Hummer is a more efficient automobile then the Toyota Prius. Those who drive hybrids and think they are doing the world a favor need to look a little further into how their cars are manufactured. Parts shipped from the far reaches of the world, and batteries that are not environmentally friendly at all.

I merely added more fuel inefficent vehicles that the imports make. I could also add in the Japanese mini vans. To say the Japanese are better at fuel efficency is not true. The Japanese wanted a part of the SUV and truck market that the big 3 had control over.

[GreatWhiteEbola]

Originally Posted by Dion

I merely added more fuel inefficent vehicles that the imports make. I could also add in the Japanese mini vans. To say the Japanese are better at fuel efficency is not true. The Japanese wanted a part of the SUV and truck market that the big 3 had control over.

The Honda Pilot was a poor example for large inefficient Japanese product. The Toyota Sequoia and Tundra, much better examples.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteEbola

The Honda Pilot was a poor example for large inefficient Japanese product. The Toyota Sequoia and Tundra, much better examples.

The Tundra, Tacoma, 4 Runner, FJ Cruiser, Highlander, Sienna and Sequia. That's almost half of the Toyota's vehicle lineup. For a company that supposedly has a reputation of making fuel efficient vehicles that's a lot of gas guzzlers in thier lineup.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Shazam

Are you sure about that?

Quite sure... from an earlier post I made:

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

At a glance (quarterly, annual 2007, annual TTM; negative numbers in red, positive numbers in green)::

Ford: -0.96%, -3.07%, -8.75%
GM: -2.33%, -2.42%, -10.21%
Chrysler: N/A

vs

Toyota: 2.84%, 8.64%, 6.21%
Honda: 5.27%, 7.94%, 6.91%
Mazda: 3.96%, 4.60%, -
Nissan: 3.3%, 6.56%, -
Volkswagon: 5.13%, 5.65%, 5.99%

And a more in depth look,

Ford:
Profitability Ratios:
Operating Margin TTIM: -8.75%
5 year Operating Margin: -2.48%
Net Profit Margin TTM: -6.92%
5 year Net Profit Margin: -1.01%

Management Effectiveness:
Return on Assets TTM: -4.3%
5 year Return on Assets: -0.59%
Return on Investment TTM: -6.47%
5 year Return on Investment: -0.83%

GM:
Operating Margin TTM: -10.21%
5 year Operating Margin: -2.48%
Net Profit Margin TTM: -14.01%
5 year Net Profit Margin: -5.51%
Return on Assets TTM: -17.85%
5 year Return on Assets: -2.86%
Return on Investment TTM: -39.35%

Industry sector average:
OM TTM: 2.91%
5Y OM: 8.07%
NPM TTM: 1.59%
5Y NPM: 5.11%

RoA TTM: 2.17%
5Y RoA: 4.51%
ROI TTM: 3.47%
5Y ROI: 6.78%

[ryangb]

Originally Posted by Shazam

JD Powers is useless.

CR's reliability ratings are better. TrueDelta's is supposedly the best, but I've only ever been told that.

Every car manufacturer has problems. Honda regularly screws up transmissions. GM's truck lineup and higher end cars (Caddy) aren't bad, but their low-mid range sedans are junk (save the Malibu). Ford's F-150, 350 are good, the 250 is a total lemon. The Escape and Fusion do quite well.

Having recently gone car shopping, I was mostly startled by the absymal fit and finish I saw by pretty well every car manufacturer, including Toyota. Their seat fabric is pitiful.

I would like to know how a 250 is a lemon, but a 350 is not? You do realize they are the exact same truck, only difference is the size of the axle, and the amount of springs in the main pack.

[Clarkey]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Cue : US-car apologists talking about how long they've had a GM, Ford, et al without having problems but thew blew a tire on a Toyota.

Its funny sometimes talking to a non-science person about reliability, they'll say they had a car for x many years and it doesn't have a problem. As a pre-emptive strike, it should be mentioned that reliability isn't the lifetime of your car - reliability is usually measured by looking at the probability of failure of a component/sub-system in a system, and how components are assembled in such a configuration to minimize the probability* of failure of the overall system (series versus parallel, et al). And, a measure is made on whether the failure of a component will cause a major failure and what is the tolerance of it in different configurations, i.e. does it require redundancy.

So, if you are driving a GM car and you are on the lucky souls that didn't have their car breakdown inbetween Lac La Biche and St Paul, there are (example) double as much Toyota lucky souls that didn't have their car breakdown either. Conversely, if you have a Toyota and you are one of the poor schmucks calling AMA for a tow at 4am just outside of Calaway Park, there are (example) double as muny poor schmucks out there hoping they are within a cell service calling for a tow as well.

* Probability is often measured in terms of MTTF (Mean Time to Failure)

Were you drunk when you wrote this? I get where you're going with this but still...

[krazycanuck]

I misread this thread title, and I'm over tired.

I was wondering why 1.5 million Sedins were being recalled to GM place. fml.

[TimSJ]

The almighty Toyota announced a recall of 3.8 million vehicles yesterday.

http://autos.canada.com/news/story.html?id=2050391

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by TimSJ

The almighty Toyota announced a recall of 3.8 million vehicles yesterday.

http://autos.canada.com/news/story.html?id=2050391

Thanks Tim - I have an '08 Tacoma this affects. Those monkeys better be sending me some free floor mats!