Let's Talk Unions again [Split]

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Poison

Yup, employees get promoted just because of their seniority....... This just gets funnier.....

Well let's jump into your funny world.

Do you find it fair that a lazy useless sack of merde should be paid more than an industrious conscientious worker based on the fact that they've been a lazy useless sack of merde for a long time?

[burn_this_city]

Actually I think you're the only person here who thinks you're right.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by 4X4

As far as this union discussion, I think that the reason people start hating unions (like me) is because we've worked in one and were not slackers. I worked for Calgary Co-op for a couple of years and eventually quit because it was so pathetic how difficult it was to get rid of crappy employees. And alot of these people simply revel it in. Like the ###### in the confessions thread wearing the sock puppet to antagonize his superior. Insubordination is not tolerated anywhere else, so why do union peons get away with it?
And it's the useless tits that continue to be employed that eventually drag down the company. The piss poor attitude of one guy is evident in his work. And then the next guy, who is actually giving it 95% sees that the jerk off next to him is getting away with murder (late all the time, call in sick as often as possible, long breaks, punch out on the very dot of 5) and it erodes his work ethic. And eventually, you have a big mass of people that are all working at 70% capacity that are too afraid to work harder than the other people because it's against the culture.
I know that is a pretty big generalization, but it's fricken true. I saw it at Co-op, I saw it at Canada Post. I was always one of the hardest working people and I was just going normal pace. The union mentality just sickens me. The whole idea of deliberately not getting stuff done to make it take longer to get paid more just goes against my entire being. But the people who like to stick it to the man? Guess where you find them? Working for unions.
Again, not everyone that works for a union is like this, but a whole bunch of them are. A whole bunch. And you just don't find that nearly as much non-unionized setting. Because losers like that get fired.

I agree with this. Unions are a productivity killer not just on the downside, but also on the upside. Since there's collective bargaining you can't make more than another person in the same position unless you work there longer than them. Therefore there's no incentive to work harder. So for the employer they have to pay net - higher wages for everyone, carry the deadweight of the slackers, AND get less out of their top people. Green text "Well, slap my money down for 1,000 shares in a company that has a built in margin killer!"

[Poison]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Well let's jump into your funny world.

Do you find it fair that a lazy useless sack of merde should be paid more than an industrious conscientious worker based on the fact that they've been a lazy useless sack of merde for a long time?

Whos to say they are getting paid more?

If this said person is so industrious and conscientious then they would be very noticed within their company for their hard work and getting compensated accordingly.

If they arent it has nothing to do with comparing it to a union job, it means the company sucks.

[Clarkey]

Originally Posted by Poison

Sure am, for ten years, so i actually know how people get promoted within a union.

Shockingly enough alot has to do with your work in your role now, the only time seniority comes into play is if two people apply and have shown the same skills and work ethic then the seniority will apply, and ive seen that happen only twice it never is usually that close between two applicants.

No, in most union jobs seniority dictates who gets hired regardless of what the policy says.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Actually I think you're the only person here who thinks you're right.

Right, because i choose not to group a bunch of people all together because of a few experiences ive had and things i think i know.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

So...You think unions drove up market demand and minimum wage expectations, and not the booming oil industry and private sector?

Sure thing.

You're right. The Oil Industry inflated everyone's cost. So did the Unionized Auto Sector in Ontario. Rank and file workers pulling in a compensation package worth up to $70 per hour? What do you think that does to everyone else?

Difference is, the Oil Industry has the ability to correct its costs by laying off employees, removing bonuses, forcing less work hours, and wage cuts. The Unionized Auto Sector lacks teeth in these options. All they can do is request the union accepts a cut or close down. But even when the fundamentals show death is circling the Big 3, and losses are creeping to the lower-paid non-union automakers, they still feel entitled to their massively inflated wage packages.

Unions are meant to protect workers from unacceptable treatment. Not to kill golden geese and strangle public sector costs as they are frequently known to do. (Not all unions, but most)

[Poison]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

No, in most union jobs seniority dictates who gets hired regardless of what the policy says.

Thats absolutely false.

You think ten people within the union apply, they dont even bother to look at any of these people except who has the most seniority? Uh huh.....

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Poison

Right, because i choose not to group a bunch of people all together because of a few experiences ive had and things i think i know.

Explain to me how unions create incentives for ingenuity and hardwork. I'm all for being convinced otherwise.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Poison

Whos to say they are getting paid more?

I'm honestly starting to doubt you know what you're talking about now.

Seriously, have you ever worked in an Union job? Seniority (time served) dictates that they get paid more.

Originally Posted by Poison

If this said person is so industrious and conscientious then they would be very noticed within their company for their hard work and getting compensated accordingly.

If they arent it has nothing to do with comparing it to a union job, it means the company sucks.

Again, they're paid re. their seniority (hours served). Common in most Union contracts. Obviously yours must be one of the few exceptions.

That they're getting paid less for working harder is a result of a union negotiated contract that rewards time not performance.

The question remains:

Are you comfortable with a lazy SOS in the same job earning more than an industrious conscientious colleague simply because they've been there longer?

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Explain to me how unions create incentives for ingenuity and hardwork. I'm all for being convinced otherwise.

Me too.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by ozy_flame

if you're concerned about public sector spending, i suggest not looking at the talking heads who show up on tv. Your real issue is with the salaried employees and the unions, assuming there is an issue.

unions are a big reason why the reccession exist.

fixed

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Poison

Right, because i choose not to group a bunch of people all together because of a few experiences ive had and things i think i know.

There's a lot of evidence documenting the productivity killing power of organized labor. When I get home I'll dig into my academic white papers on the subject.

Of course generalization can at times seem like prejudice, but sometimes using a straw-man arguement can be disaterous when applied on a grand scale where the bad examples far outweigh the good examples.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Explain to me how unions create incentives for ingenuity and hardwork. I'm all for being convinced otherwise.

Because most unions have performance reviews and an acceptable level is required to keep your job.

Not only that, but where I work, hard work is rewarded by a bigger department budget which then enables me to flex my creative muscle and build a solid portfolio of work.

Incentive doesn't always mean monetary gain. And if it does, then I would hate to live and die by the almighty dollar.

[Poison]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I'm honestly starting to doubt you know what you're talking about now.

Seriously, have you ever worked in an Union job? Seniority (time served) dictates that they get paid more.



Again, they're paid re. their seniority (hours served). Common in most Union contracts. Obviously yours must be one of the few exceptions.

That they're getting paid less for working harder is a result of a union negotiated contract that rewards time not performance.

The question remains:

Are you comfortable with a lazy SOS in the same job earning more than an industrious conscientious colleague simply because they've been there longer?

Ah now THAT is true, time served does dictate pay.
Except that wasnt what was said, it was argued seniority was the primary reason people got PROMOTED.

Im seriously doubting youre reading the posts before commenting.....

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

Because most unions have performance reviews and an acceptable level is required to keep your job.

Not only that, but where I work, hard work is rewarded by a bigger department budget which then enables me to flex my creative muscle and build a solid portfolio of work.

Incentive doesn't always mean monetary gain. And if it does, then I would have to live and die by the almighty dollar.

I think you've just identified where you stand vis-a-vis the "Stick it to the man" arguement provided earlier.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

fixed

Yup, all those police, teachers, health care workers, manufacturers...The fact that they're unionized has put us into a terrible recession.

Forget the Wallstreet elite or corrupt private sector big wigs; it's all the workers fault.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I think you've just identified where you stand vis-a-vis the "Stick it to the man" arguement provided earlier.

Sorry...I mean "hate" to live. It was a typo.

[Shin Pad]

Originally Posted by Poison

Thats absolutely false.

You think ten people within the union apply, they dont even bother to look at any of these people except who has the most seniority? Uh huh.....

I'm not sure about all unions, but, way back when, I was in a union. When a job posting came up, the person with the most seniority got the job - period. The didn't look at anything else. The only exceptions were if the job called for an electrican for example, than the most senior electrican that applied for the job got it. But, for the majority of the jobs and postings, it was strictly given to the person with the most seniority. That is only my experience with unions.

I could see it being a bit different in something like the public sector unions - obviously, some of the jobs and promotions require specific qualifications and skills. So, in these cases, I can see that it is not based on seniority alone.

These days, I am self employed. I have to thank my old union job for getting me enough money to get an education and be able get a very prosperous and rewarding career.

[BlackArcher101]

Is this thread about Unions now?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by fotze

Please tell me there is similarily themed disincentives of lower budgets to match the top performers.

There certainly is. You get fired if you don't perform. It's that simple.

Much to the chagrin of many who like to uphold the stereotype of unionized employees, firing is an option and I have seen it being used numerous times before.

Often times where I work, there are a lot of contracted individuals, many of whom simply don't get renewed based solely on work ethic.